Doubt sharpening templates Mr. Steve Lindsay
- Thread starter Marcelo
- Start date
Marcelo,The Lindsay template sharping system is designed for power assist not the method of hand push.Go to Sam's tips & tricks you'll find geomerty on sharping for hand push engraving. J.J.
mdengraver
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Thanks JJ I didn't know that either.
In a nutshell, gravers used for hand push need longer heels. See my video on the speitzer graver in the tips archive.
Terrezar
Elite Cafe Member
I do a lot of my engraving with a 120 degree graver with a micro heel, at about 15 degrees, and I do all of my engraving by hand. The problem with the templates is, the way I see it, the paralell heel, witch I find a bad choise for hand push, as it takes more force to push through the metall.
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One place especially... you just heard it from a FEGA Master Engraver! And, I feel you have disrespected Sam with a comment like that. Until you earn one of these:
Terrazar,
I think it will be a very interesting conversation in the next posts.
I do not agree with your that " ...It seemes to have becomed a sort of rumor in here, because every time I see the subject appare this little pice of information comes up......".
Unfortunately I am ESL (English Second Language ) and I cannot support our discussion. So, I will wait for somebody who can explain you where you can find the tons of info about any questions.
Thank you for understanding and cooperation. I wish you good luck.
I think it will be a very interesting conversation in the next posts.
I do not agree with your that " ...It seemes to have becomed a sort of rumor in here, because every time I see the subject appare this little pice of information comes up......".
Unfortunately I am ESL (English Second Language ) and I cannot support our discussion. So, I will wait for somebody who can explain you where you can find the tons of info about any questions.
Thank you for understanding and cooperation. I wish you good luck.
Terrezar
Elite Cafe Member
One place especially... you just heard it from a FEGA Master Engraver! And, I feel you have disrespected Sam with a comment like that. Until you earn one of these:, I think the word of a FEGA Master is good enough for me.
I edited away most of the post. I did not want to insult Sam, nor did I want to disrespect him. Beleve me, I think he is a brilliante engraver, in every way. I simply stated that I think a short heel can be good for hand push as well, and that I think it strange that this pice of advise is offered every time hand push is mentioned.
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all I can see Mr. Sam. In this forum already externei esteem vote for their dedication and talent donated to everyone. Certainly a great professional. In the videos, according to my little knowledge, many things escape. The question is I have a dual angle GRS and Mr. Steve templates and I'm not getting a satisfactory distress to hand push. So I think what I'm doing wrong? Does with these tools can sharpen correctly for my use? Now the amazing thing is that the best sharpening the free hand that I was watching a video of Mr. Sam the first time I picked up the chisel, but never managed to repeat it, those rare moment of luck. Is that with these two tools can do a good sharpening method for hand push? If so, how? I thank you all for your time.
I can't speak for the templates because I don't have them and can't say whether they produce a graver suitable for hand push or not. But in my experience the small size heel that many of us use for handpiece and hammer & chisel engraving doesn't work so well for hand pushing. Now let me clarify that a bit more. I can pick up my normal 90, 105, or 120 and hand push some things like crosshatching, short shade cuts, some longer shading (but not all), etc. If I were cut scrolls or lettering I would definitely hand push with a long heel graver because it gives me more control. Also, the material I'm engraving also comes into play. It's far easier to push longer lines in sterling silver than it is in gun steel.
McKenzie would sometimes start a shade line with a short heeled hand graver and cut until as far as he felt confident, and then finish the cut with a chisel.
Here's Ken Hunt's drawing on graver sharpening. See the size of those heels? That comes from a man who was pushing gravers before I was born.
Also, I don't claim to be the authority on the matter. I toss out ideas and tips about what works for me. And as I often say, your mileage may vary (English term meaning it may work as well, or better, or worse for you).
McKenzie would sometimes start a shade line with a short heeled hand graver and cut until as far as he felt confident, and then finish the cut with a chisel.
Here's Ken Hunt's drawing on graver sharpening. See the size of those heels? That comes from a man who was pushing gravers before I was born.
Also, I don't claim to be the authority on the matter. I toss out ideas and tips about what works for me. And as I often say, your mileage may vary (English term meaning it may work as well, or better, or worse for you).
Brian Marshall
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
This is something I have NEVER understood...
Why is it that there are engravers out there who are so closed to any particular of way of getting the job done?
All my life I have tried out EVERY tool from EVERY manufacturer. (plus all the antique stuff no longer made)
And I offer that opportunity to any student who comes here. Or anyone who just stops by to chew the fat for that matter...
Try sharpening by hand.
Try sharpening with the old Crockers and some of the other older fixtures.
Try power assisted sharpening with the GRS fixtures (plus the improvements made by BPE) AND the Lindsay templates.
Try sharpening with parallel heels, tapered heels, long heels, short heels, rolled heels, no heels!
Try each and every tool out there, no matter WHO made them.
You will NOT go a burning lake of fire for all eternity - if you touch the tools made by whatever company... or use a certain graver geometry!
You can even go do it in a dark closet somewhere, so no one will know.
You might actually find something that helps you get your work done more efficiently. (And you might not, but you won't be known for having a closed mind)
Brian
You can always sell off whatever it is if it doesn't work for you, and let someone else try it...
Why is it that there are engravers out there who are so closed to any particular of way of getting the job done?
All my life I have tried out EVERY tool from EVERY manufacturer. (plus all the antique stuff no longer made)
And I offer that opportunity to any student who comes here. Or anyone who just stops by to chew the fat for that matter...
Try sharpening by hand.
Try sharpening with the old Crockers and some of the other older fixtures.
Try power assisted sharpening with the GRS fixtures (plus the improvements made by BPE) AND the Lindsay templates.
Try sharpening with parallel heels, tapered heels, long heels, short heels, rolled heels, no heels!
Try each and every tool out there, no matter WHO made them.
You will NOT go a burning lake of fire for all eternity - if you touch the tools made by whatever company... or use a certain graver geometry!
You can even go do it in a dark closet somewhere, so no one will know.
You might actually find something that helps you get your work done more efficiently. (And you might not, but you won't be known for having a closed mind)
Brian
You can always sell off whatever it is if it doesn't work for you, and let someone else try it...
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Haraga.com
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
I know why Brian. It's peer pressure. Most people are like sheep and they like it that way because it relieves them of some responsibility.
Here's a really good article written and illustrated by Martin Strolz buried in the Tips Archive. Definitely worth reading (again).
Square Graver Geometry by Martin Strolz
Square Graver Geometry by Martin Strolz
mitch
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2007
- Messages
- 2,648
as i said in another thread recently, the reason parallel heels are not well-suited for hand push is because they slightly narrow/shrink the graver face. in other words, if you can envision looking straight at the graver face along the axis of the heel (where the heel facets meet), parallel heel facets actually make the cutting face slightly smaller than the bulk of the graver behind it. it's wedging itself into the metal as you go. imagine looking at the open end of a cardboard box and folding the flaps in 15-20 degrees (the heel)...
parallel heels do have some advantages, especially when tipped to one side (then they cut like a skewed flat graver), but this wedging effect increases cutting resistance which is problematic for hand pushing. a well-polished parallel heel can also have a nice burnishing effect as the tool passes, leaving nice shiny cuts in its wake.
and btw- Brian, you don't know that you won't end up burning for eternity for that. ;-)
parallel heels do have some advantages, especially when tipped to one side (then they cut like a skewed flat graver), but this wedging effect increases cutting resistance which is problematic for hand pushing. a well-polished parallel heel can also have a nice burnishing effect as the tool passes, leaving nice shiny cuts in its wake.
and btw- Brian, you don't know that you won't end up burning for eternity for that. ;-)
Kevin Scott
Elite Cafe Member
This is something I have NEVER understood...
Why is it that there are engravers out there who are so closed to any particular of way of getting the job done?
All my life I have tried out EVERY tool from EVERY manufacturer. (plus all the antique stuff no longer made)
And I offer that opportunity to any student who comes here. Or anyone who just stops by to chew the fat for that matter...
Try sharpening by hand. Try sharpening with parallel heels, tapered heels, long heels, short heels, rolled heels, no heels!
Try sharpening with the old Crockers and some of the other old fixtures.
Try power assisted sharpening with the GRS fixtures (plus the improvements made by BPE) AND the Lindsay templates.
Try each and every tool out there, no matter WHO made them.
You will NOT go a burning lake of fire for all eternity - if you touch the tools made by whatever company... or use a certain graver geometry!
You can even go do it in a dark closet somewhere, so no one will know.
You might actually find something that helps you get your work done more efficiently. (And you might not, but you won't be known for having a closed mind)
Brian
You can always sell off whatever it is if it doesn't work for you, and let someone else try it...
I agree people should try different things. If an engraving tool does not work for you, you can resell it and get most of your money back. Or maybe all your money if you bought it used.
A bigger problem is time. A full time or experienced engraver can fairly quickly decide if a geometry or tool can be useful to them. But for me, to give a geometry a chance, it takes time. Because I have to decide whether the problem is with me or the geometry.
I own 6 Lindsay template geometries. Probably spent about 40 hours trying each one. Since the geometry is different, you have to do some things differently in order to judge if the geometry can help you. Also tried modifying the geometry a bit.
Finally came to the conclusion that the disadvantages of the Lindsay geometries and templates that I have tried outway the advantages. For me, as a pusher power hobbyist that mostly does lettering. Maybe for some pushers, they can work. Or at least for some work. I think the big problem with the templates for push power is the included angle of the face is too steep for most push power work. I believe it is in the 55 to 60 plus degree range. And when you try to modify the face angle, you throw off the the other angles. With a lower face, the 96 degree template becomes more like a 55 degree.
Still like the template system. Should not be hard to make a template to match your own preferred geometry if Lindsay does not make it. Also, I believe Steve Lindsay will make custom templates if you supply the angles wanted.
One of the many great things about this forum is it saves time and money for new people and hobbyists like me time. By listening to others experiences. Keeps us from trying to reinvent the wheel, or go down paths that are known to be dead ends.
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Brian Marshall
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Kevin,
Are you "freehand" sharpening? Have you ever tried the Crocker to get a little more uniform result?
Yes, I know it is antiquated to most folks on this forum, but that is simply because they haven't really studied the tool to see how it can be improved. (Most don't "make" anything, nor have the tools to do so)
First problem with it, is that there are no "numbers" on it. Fix that by getting a protractor, setting the angles and then using a center punch to mark what you know you like. On both axis. You can even use colored paint in the punch mark if you want to use several different geometries.
You can make better adapters to fit whatever gravers you use. Sometimes that "universal" "V" insert is useless...
You can even make an adapter to accept a QC graver.
They are relatively cheap and can do far more than a single template.
Besides, the last time I added 'em up - if you buy the entire collection of templates you are looking at something well over a $500 investment! And even with a huge collection of templates you still cannot sharpen half the gravers I use on a daily basis!
Brian
Are you "freehand" sharpening? Have you ever tried the Crocker to get a little more uniform result?
Yes, I know it is antiquated to most folks on this forum, but that is simply because they haven't really studied the tool to see how it can be improved. (Most don't "make" anything, nor have the tools to do so)
First problem with it, is that there are no "numbers" on it. Fix that by getting a protractor, setting the angles and then using a center punch to mark what you know you like. On both axis. You can even use colored paint in the punch mark if you want to use several different geometries.
You can make better adapters to fit whatever gravers you use. Sometimes that "universal" "V" insert is useless...
You can even make an adapter to accept a QC graver.
They are relatively cheap and can do far more than a single template.
Besides, the last time I added 'em up - if you buy the entire collection of templates you are looking at something well over a $500 investment! And even with a huge collection of templates you still cannot sharpen half the gravers I use on a daily basis!
Brian
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Brian's right. Here are a couple of antique Crockers. The one on the right I recently received as a gift from JJ Roberts (love ya' JJ!).
I've certainly poked fun at these old fixtures but as you can see from the wear and tear, these were in use for many, many years. And no doubt the gravers sharpened with them produced the beautiful work that we modern day engravers admire and envy. I think there are better and more accurate options for today's engraver, but it would be a mistake to dismiss these old workhorses.
I've certainly poked fun at these old fixtures but as you can see from the wear and tear, these were in use for many, many years. And no doubt the gravers sharpened with them produced the beautiful work that we modern day engravers admire and envy. I think there are better and more accurate options for today's engraver, but it would be a mistake to dismiss these old workhorses.
John P. Anderson
Elite Cafe Member
I'm hobby engraver that push graves mostly silver and other soft metals. For what it's worth,
I like a narrow V or Onglette for push work. 60 degrees versus the 120 your trying. About 90 degree is the widest angle I like for push graving. I also like my Flat tools as they are very universal and easiest to sharpen. 90% of my carving is done with only two tools, the narrow V and a Flat.
I don't think there is a "perfect" set of angles or heels for push tools. It depends on the job. Sometimes I like my tool to have a lot of "bite" so I go with little or no heel. Other times I like lots of heel for say cleaning up sculpted work.
It takes A LOT of practice before you can tell the difference and hand sharpen to make the tool do what you want when you want. Don't forget to stick your graver in a raw potato overnight though that trick only seems to work when staying with a Master Engraver.
Stick to copper starting out and don't blame your tools, blame yourself for all mistakes, slips and lack of sharpening skills.
Go visit an engraver and/or take lessons if possible.
John
I like a narrow V or Onglette for push work. 60 degrees versus the 120 your trying. About 90 degree is the widest angle I like for push graving. I also like my Flat tools as they are very universal and easiest to sharpen. 90% of my carving is done with only two tools, the narrow V and a Flat.
I don't think there is a "perfect" set of angles or heels for push tools. It depends on the job. Sometimes I like my tool to have a lot of "bite" so I go with little or no heel. Other times I like lots of heel for say cleaning up sculpted work.
It takes A LOT of practice before you can tell the difference and hand sharpen to make the tool do what you want when you want. Don't forget to stick your graver in a raw potato overnight though that trick only seems to work when staying with a Master Engraver.
Stick to copper starting out and don't blame your tools, blame yourself for all mistakes, slips and lack of sharpening skills.
Go visit an engraver and/or take lessons if possible.
John
Kevin Scott
Elite Cafe Member
Brian, yes I have a Crocker tool. I use it to rough out a new graver to get it close to the angles I want. Using a power hone. Then freehand to finish it. Then freehand to resharpen it when the point breaks etc.
In addition to your tips on using the Crocker too, the length the graver extends from the tool varies the angles. I should use a tubing spacer for more consistent results, and get to the angles I want faster. Getting heel - lift - belly angles is sort of hit or miss, trial and error otherwise. If I worked and studied the Crocker tool, using your tips and and a tubing spacer, I think I could sharpen faster.
The Crocker tool does have some advantages. You can usually sharpen with the push handle attached. And it can sharpen a wide range of graver sizes, unlike the template system and Hamler fixture which I also have. For the record also have a GRS single angle fixture, which I like for some things. Sold off all my other older graver fixtures. Some of them made a Crocker tool look like it was the best thing since sliced bread. A GRS dual angle fixture is on my want list, especially if it can take of range of graver sizes. Have lots of old gravers of various sizes. I don't mind that they are mostly carbon steel.
And I agree with John Anderson, 120 width is too wide for hand pushing. Even with traditional geometries. Trying to plow too much metal, too much force needed. I mostly use 90 and 95 face width. Sometimes 100 and 105 to make cuts wider after cutting with a 90 or 95. For me, 5 degrees makes a big difference. Seems not so much with power engraving.
In addition to your tips on using the Crocker too, the length the graver extends from the tool varies the angles. I should use a tubing spacer for more consistent results, and get to the angles I want faster. Getting heel - lift - belly angles is sort of hit or miss, trial and error otherwise. If I worked and studied the Crocker tool, using your tips and and a tubing spacer, I think I could sharpen faster.
The Crocker tool does have some advantages. You can usually sharpen with the push handle attached. And it can sharpen a wide range of graver sizes, unlike the template system and Hamler fixture which I also have. For the record also have a GRS single angle fixture, which I like for some things. Sold off all my other older graver fixtures. Some of them made a Crocker tool look like it was the best thing since sliced bread. A GRS dual angle fixture is on my want list, especially if it can take of range of graver sizes. Have lots of old gravers of various sizes. I don't mind that they are mostly carbon steel.
And I agree with John Anderson, 120 width is too wide for hand pushing. Even with traditional geometries. Trying to plow too much metal, too much force needed. I mostly use 90 and 95 face width. Sometimes 100 and 105 to make cuts wider after cutting with a 90 or 95. For me, 5 degrees makes a big difference. Seems not so much with power engraving.
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