Question: Andu Engraver

[oniemarc]

Steve's patent pending on the fractal vise is undecided. He may or may not get a patent. His design offers a new solution to some old problems. I will repeat this part, "new solution to some old problems." That is the essence of patent law. If you think the original vise stands on its own as the perfect solution to all users, then find one, copy it, and sell them. For Steve's vise, the USPTO will decide if it is enough to be protected.

As far as Steve's Classic foot pedal engraver, I am not aware of the full extent of the patent expiration. He does have a patent on the Palm Control, and depending on how that patent is written, it may cover the Classic tool with an additional period of coverage. That is common in patent law to extend the patent coverage of an original invention by patenting new innovations that are part of/attached to the original device. You would need a lawyer to help you decipher the exact overlap, but I suspect the Palm Control patent afford Steve some additional protection. Probably total protection. This is the downside to USPTO. Sometimes you need a lawyer and a court to decide the full extent of a patent coverage.

If you want to copy Steve's Classic tool, make enough changes to the design and use a foot control off the shelf. You might be okay. If you want to copy Steve's Classic tool with a palm control, even with changes you may be in violation of a patent.

If you want to play, you need to put skin in the game. That is why I never go on Ganoksin anymore. Too many people want something for nothing.

Obviously I have no desire to copy or produce any engraving tools. I find it hard enough to learn how to engrave, hahahah. This is indeed a rather good explanation. The name is protected too right? Aswell as airgraver, artgraver and some other products he makes. Which I think makes the most sense, as even when a patent expires, nobody can use said name.

Thank you for taking the time to give a clear explanation. As I am not an American, nor native english speaker, sometimes it can be hard to read these rather technical issues. In person, a conversation is completely different than a written one. Again, thank you for taking the time and effort, it is much appreciated.

 

[silvermon]

The name is protected too right?

I assume that Steve has trademarks on many of his product names. Trademarks are separated from patents, but administered by the USPTO as well, at the federal level. There are state level trademarks as well.
As I recall, trademarks last as long as they are being used. It could be an interesting question whether Lindsey has a state level or federal level trademark on Palm Control? I have no specific knowledge, but a federal trademark on Palm Control may be difficult to get/enforce since many industries have used palm control systems.

 

[edgrabow15]

Its a patent violation of the airgraver. Its also not very well built and wont last. Its not worth the bother. My uncles friend bought one but rarely used it. I looked at it and fired it up and it was horrible.

It was the 1st one I bought. I GAVE IT AWAY To a guy just starting out. They have almost no resale value. That's one thing you can't say about a Lindsey. I've owned 5 or 6 in my time and have run into health issues where I needed some serious cash immediately. Everyone except 1 sold for the same amount I'd bought it for years earlier. Not a penny less. Reason being the buyers knew it was an excellent piece of equipment and thought there are always the few who are gonna say ." How can you ask that much for a used tool. I can buy a brand new one for the exact same amount" I simply replied to go ahead and do it of you don't mind waiting 4-6 weeks maybe to get it ( palm gravers ) if you want a tool that's the same cond except possibly a small blemish somewhere shipped and in your hands in 2 days I have it. There were engravers waiting in line who paid no problem and I had that payment usually within the hour after it was posted. Sold my Goliath Tru center vice for the same I bought it for also. Name another tool your gonna do that with? I've never twisted anybody's arm ,I respect everyones right to spend their money the way they want to.

 

[edgrabow15]

I assume that Steve has trademarks on many of his product names. Trademarks are separated from patents, but administered by the USPTO as well, at the federal level. There are state level trademarks as well.
As I recall, trademarks last as long as they are being used. It could be an interesting question whether Lindsey has a state level or federal level trademark on Palm Control? I have no specific knowledge, but a federal trademark on Palm Control may be difficult to get/enforce since many industries have used palm control systems.

All anyone has to do who wants to know specifics on those details is ask Steve he's extreamly easy to talk to . I'm not sure about any of his parents being expired or not so I don't make assumptions. .I know the name palm control is trademarked this why GRS uses a different term. I accidentally called their 901 AT a GRS palm control and Steve told me about it. Very nicely. Never felt like he was jumping down my throat. I didn't know. He accepted that and now I do know lol.

 

[MarkyMark]

I bought the Turkish ball vice, in Istanbul. i think its made in Adana, Im just starting, and on a budget, but didnt like the China one...(around the Grand Bazaar area there are a few great jewelry supply shops and you can see them first hand, and not just order on the internet)...too, I didnt like the India one, that is a beast, and chuck of iron..... If you had a time machine, and used the Indian version as a Cannon ball, I dont think a fleet of Galleons would have lasted long in the water with that bad boy... anyway, the one i bought is so well engineered compared to the others....There was a guy who 3D printed a one-off Fractal vice, from that original patent talked about here, which he duly noted, that went Viral on Instagram, soon after Steve Lindseys version did the same on Instagram...and many comments said, Pal, it s not your idea, cause they had seen the college guys 3D printed project one, taken from the 100 old one, However i cant say if SL attributed it or not..

 

[Addertooth]

The one thing about the Chinese knock offs that most people don't talk about is the tariff you must pay on top of the cost of the GRS knock-offs. The tariff request comes from US Customs after the engraver is already in your hands. (Those tariffs were put in place to protect the US manufacturers who produce engraving machines). Admittedly, my experience with paying this tariff is a few years old. I am not certain if they are still in place, or how much they are.

 

[Travis_UT]

I feel I can chime in on this one. When getting started I bought an Andu handpiece. It worked well enough for me to enjoy engraving and learing. I was fortunate enough to try out a GSR GraverMach AT and I instantly bought the GraverMach setup. The Andu works okay for medium sized scroll backbones. It is not very good for shading, it does not have enough fine control. That's just my experience.

 

[QuantumGraver]

it was extremely well made and performed perfectly in my opinion....some months later I saw a used Lindsay for sale and bought it 1500€ and it too performed exceptionally well.. knowing what I know now I would have kept the Andu and the change, as in my eyes it was equal too the Lindsay.. if you have a low budget then not much choice out there..the Lindsay is great but it is very expensive to begin with.

That's all I needed, thank you.

 

[teroon]

I have his sharpening mini power hone for about 7-8 months and it work well. And for that money event if it would break one in 2-3 years I would still buy another one. In the matter of contacting him he is very ok and I can not say any bad word about him.

As for his engraving tools, and espetially about his version of air graver and so on. I do get why Steve and a lot of people are angry that the tool was copied. I really do. But there is another part of the story there. The story of the customer.

The way to have more people engraving is to have a lower entry level options. I know that many will say that hammer and chisel is the cheapes option so go ahead buy one and save the money. It is one way. I have tried it. It wasn't for me. So I have searched and search and made my own electric engraving machine based on Alister Duncan project (Alister if you are reading this thank you once more).

But there are a lot of people that don't have the skill to make an engraving machine. Hell, even with Alister instructions, and some more of my own experiments it took me around 6 months to get the machine working the way I like it.

So making an engraving machine is not an option for a lot of people. Other way is to buy one. And here comes the perspective. USA is one of the richest countries in the world when it comes to income per capita. Wester Europe is very close to it or on equal level.

But for the rest of us it is different storry.

I will give you my self as an example. I'm a bachelor living in Poland (Europe). I have no credit I have to pay, no wife, no kids, and no other money obligations. I'm a boss in my own company, and I think I'm in the upper part of the society when it comes to earnings.
And even given all those thins, if I would like to buy Steve air graver, I would have to save the money for around 1-1,5 year. Hell, recently I have checked my car is slightly more expensive then his Airgraver.
So think for a moment about that - how hard can it be to afore Steve tools for the rest of middle or eastern europe, or some of the people in Asia.

So for me, a person that does not know if I want to make an engraving a bigger part of my financial life, option to try with a cheaper (even a bit worse) tool, that is a great option. And like with a lot of things, if I buy a cheaper tool, and I will find it (engraving/hobby) interesting and able to earn some money, then sooner or later I would switch to a better tool, that is more expensive. That is the way things work (at least around here). If the entry level is very high you will get less people to engrave, and in the end fewer people will buy things from better companies like Steve, GRS and so on. So it is not such a bad things that there are cheaper (even if they are a bit worse) tools out there.

That is how I see it. Sorry for the long post but I wanted to set a bit bigger picture. And sorry for any misspelling.

 

[QuantumGraver]

I have his sharpening mini power hone for about 7-8 months and it work well. And for that money event if it would break one in 2-3 years I would still buy another one. In the matter of contacting him he is very ok and I can not say any bad word about him.

As for his engraving tools, and espetially about his version of air graver and so on. I do get why Steve and a lot of people are angry that the tool was copied. I really do. But there is another part of the story there. The story of the customer.

The way to have more people engraving is to have a lower entry level options. I know that many will say that hammer and chisel is the cheapes option so go ahead buy one and save the money. It is one way. I have tried it. It wasn't for me. So I have searched and search and made my own electric engraving machine based on Alister Duncan project (Alister if you are reading this thank you once more).

But there are a lot of people that don't have the skill to make an engraving machine. Hell, even with Alister instructions, and some more of my own experiments it took me around 6 months to get the machine working the way I like it.

So making an engraving machine is not an option for a lot of people. Other way is to buy one. And here comes the perspective. USA is one of the richest countries in the world when it comes to income per capita. Wester Europe is very close to it or on equal level.

But for the rest of us it is different storry.

I will give you my self as an example. I'm a bachelor living in Poland (Europe). I have no credit I have to pay, no wife, no kids, and no other money obligations. I'm a boss in my own company, and I think I'm in the upper part of the society when it comes to earnings.
And even given all those thins, if I would like to buy Steve air graver, I would have to save the money for around 1-1,5 year. Hell, recently I have checked my car is slightly more expensive then his Airgraver.
So think for a moment about that - how hard can it be to afore Steve tools for the rest of middle or eastern europe, or some of the people in Asia.

So for me, a person that does not know if I want to make an engraving a bigger part of my financial life, option to try with a cheaper (even a bit worse) tool, that is a great option. And like with a lot of things, if I buy a cheaper tool, and I will find it (engraving/hobby) interesting and able to earn some money, then sooner or later I would switch to a better tool, that is more expensive. That is the way things work (at least around here). If the entry level is very high you will get less people to engrave, and in the end fewer people will buy things from better companies like Steve, GRS and so on. So it is not such a bad things that there are cheaper (even if they are a bit worse) tools out there.

That is how I see it. Sorry for the long post but I wanted to set a bit bigger picture. And sorry for any misspelling.

I really enjoy when is someone who is "living reality" write a review. By the way, the patents are expired, anyone can make it and sell it now.
When ANYONE says "buy the Lindsay or don't even bother, it's a pricey hobbie, don't buy the fake ones or go with a hammer " which would come to 5K+, the person is living in a bubble. I just got the new Katway Electric engraver and it amazing, the customer service is above and beyond checking with me everyday, asking for a review and feedback, all in? $600. Comes with a micro motors very similar to the Foredom 1070, a heat gun and the engraver with many adjustment options, it's amazing. Now think about that, $600. A foredom 1070 runs @300 itself.
I know I will be eaten alive here but at the end of the day life is about adapting and some of us don't know any other way.

 

[Chujybear]

I have his sharpening mini power hone for about 7-8 months and it work well. And for that money event if it would break one in 2-3 years I would still buy another one. In the matter of contacting him he is very ok and I can not say any bad word about him.

As for his engraving tools, and espetially about his version of air graver and so on. I do get why Steve and a lot of people are angry that the tool was copied. I really do. But there is another part of the story there. The story of the customer.

The way to have more people engraving is to have a lower entry level options. I know that many will say that hammer and chisel is the cheapes option so go ahead buy one and save the money. It is one way. I have tried it. It wasn't for me. So I have searched and search and made my own electric engraving machine based on Alister Duncan project (Alister if you are reading this thank you once more).

But there are a lot of people that don't have the skill to make an engraving machine. Hell, even with Alister instructions, and some more of my own experiments it took me around 6 months to get the machine working the way I like it.

So making an engraving machine is not an option for a lot of people. Other way is to buy one. And here comes the perspective. USA is one of the richest countries in the world when it comes to income per capita. Wester Europe is very close to it or on equal level.

But for the rest of us it is different storry.

I will give you my self as an example. I'm a bachelor living in Poland (Europe). I have no credit I have to pay, no wife, no kids, and no other money obligations. I'm a boss in my own company, and I think I'm in the upper part of the society when it comes to earnings.
And even given all those thins, if I would like to buy Steve air graver, I would have to save the money for around 1-1,5 year. Hell, recently I have checked my car is slightly more expensive then his Airgraver.
So think for a moment about that - how hard can it be to afore Steve tools for the rest of middle or eastern europe, or some of the people in Asia.

So for me, a person that does not know if I want to make an engraving a bigger part of my financial life, option to try with a cheaper (even a bit worse) tool, that is a great option. And like with a lot of things, if I buy a cheaper tool, and I will find it (engraving/hobby) interesting and able to earn some money, then sooner or later I would switch to a better tool, that is more expensive. That is the way things work (at least around here). If the entry level is very high you will get less people to engrave, and in the end fewer people will buy things from better companies like Steve, GRS and so on. So it is not such a bad things that there are cheaper (even if they are a bit worse) tools out there.

That is how I see it. Sorry for the long post but I wanted to set a bit bigger picture. And sorry for any misspelling.

Power graver is not really a barrier to getting into engraving.. people have been engraving without access to power gravers for 100’s (?) of years..

 

[John B.]

Some people use the price of power engraving tools as their excuse for not beginning engraving!
Who say's you need a mechanical engraving machine to start and learn to engrave?

Much of the best engraving in the world is done with hammer and chisel or push gravers.
And these tools are easily found., or made, and are relatively inexpensive.

Yes, power equipment is nice to have.
But it is an expensive and unneeded luxury for the beginning engraver, in my opinion.
With hammer and chisel or push engraving you get to start and learn, and find out if engraving is for you!

 

[Aventuraal]

Is all this concern over powered equipment a sign of the "I want it now" mindset? At least a rudimentary understanding of the hand process would be an asset in understanding the art........which I doubt you would get by jumping in with power tools.......

 

[oniemarc]

Is all this concern over powered equipment a sign of the "I want it now" mindset? At least a rudimentary understanding of the hand process would be an asset in understanding the art........which I doubt you would get by jumping in with power tools.......

I don't think so. If you were looking to start engraving right now, you are going to search the interwebs and youtube. Most things you will find will be about air assisted. The bit you will find about handpushing will tell you that it is alot harder and therefor the learning curve is much steeper....and....mostly suited for the softer metals. If you are looking at engraving your own titanium creations, like a friend of mine does, you are not going to try and handpush said titanium pieces. For myself...I wanted to engrave my tattoomachines that I build. Those are mostly mildsteel. When I started engraving I didn't think you could handpush those frames.

And let's face it....we all love shiny tools. As a beginner...the air powered tools just look amazing...hahaha


Marc

 

[raflito67]

Hi folks,







Anyone on here use or have experience of the Andu hand control engraver?







ThanI have one I've had it for about save 3 and a 1/2 years and I never had a problem with itks



Ed



Hi folks,



Anyone on here use or have experience of the Andu hand control engraver?



Thanks

Ed

 

[raflito67]

Hi folks,



Anyone on here use or have experience of the Andu hand control engraver?



Thanks

Had mine for 3 years never had a problem with It ,,,, Is going strong

 

[Gunsmith]

Hi yes I use one and works like a treat I have had it for a few months and it’s fine no problems at all , I haven’t tried a lyndsay so can’t compare it

 

[EngraverHand]

Personally I think it’s unethical and immoral to buy, copy or sell a knock off tool or any design, no matter who it is. Imagine if someone just took your design and sold it as theirs.. Anyway, I know there has been a US Federal court ordered a permanent injunction for years against him and all of the aliases names he uses that are listed in the law suite. https://www.govinfo.gov/app/details/USCOURTS-ned-4_16-cv-00017/summary

If he has ignored the court's permanent injunction and there is proof he has sold or shipped any to USA from the date of the injunction he is in contempt of court and can prosecuted with criminal penalties. Contempt of court is not even a patent issue but it´s criminal. https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/contempt_of_court_criminal If ordering his knockoff there is a chance that it will be seized by customs and be long gone. Maintenance could also be impossible.

Also I know there are patents that are not expired and even new patents on improvements as well as pending ones, so I would definitely not do any business with someone like him or any of his alias names..

 

[QuantumGraver]

Personally I think it’s unethical and immoral to buy, copy or sell a knock off tool or any design, no matter who it is. Imagine if someone just took your design and sold it as theirs.. Anyway, I know there has been a US Federal court ordered a permanent injunction for years against him and all of the aliases names he uses that are listed in the law suite. https://www.govinfo.gov/app/details/USCOURTS-ned-4_16-cv-00017/summary

If he has ignored the court's permanent injunction and there is proof he has sold or shipped any to USA from the date of the injunction he is in contempt of court and can prosecuted with criminal penalties. Contempt of court is not even a patent issue but it´s criminal. https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/contempt_of_court_criminal If ordering his knockoff there is a chance that it will be seized by customs and be long gone. Maintenance could also be impossible.

Also I know there are patents that are not expired and even new patents on improvements as well as pending ones, so I would definitely not do any business with someone like him or any of his alias names..

Personally I believe in accessibility. Society evolves through competition and cooperation not by exclusivity.
Legally I believe in patent or what we like to call "government control", because when it comes to that some of us really loves the GOV or "Freedom" until it affects me.
Patents expires for a reason ( and his main one will early 2024), I wish It didn't so pharmaceuticals could just charge whatever and forever for a drug to keep some people alive. It's a more complicated problem than just "immoral" and when it comes to nuclear development, it gets a little more spicy, the US protects with more than just patents but that's a story for another day and I am glad we are talking about engravers.
It's a beautiful thing that we can disagree in some subjects and polices and as a mechanical engineer it is my duty to benefit the majority.
There are some amazing stories about people in many generations who decided not to patent things for the benefit of many but I will save that and the nuclear stories for another time.

 

[Stock682]

I really enjoy when is someone who is "living reality" write a review. By the way, the patents are expired, anyone can make it and sell it now.
When ANYONE says "buy the Lindsay or don't even bother, it's a pricey hobbie, don't buy the fake ones or go with a hammer " which would come to 5K+, the person is living in a bubble. I just got the new Katway Electric engraver and it amazing, the customer service is above and beyond checking with me everyday, asking for a review and feedback, all in? $600. Comes with a micro motors very similar to the Foredom 1070, a heat gun and the engraver with many adjustment options, it's amazing. Now think about that, $600. A foredom 1070 runs @300 itself.
I know I will be eaten alive here but at the end of the day life is about adapting and some of us don't know any other way.

The Kataway electric engraver is absolute trash. A total waste of money.