Question: Andu Engraver

707chrisa

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The worst tool to own is one that brakes when you need it most. Cheep tools sit in the tool box and make you think you can do the job. Then you drive out in to the boonies to do a job and the tool snaps in half and 40 miles from any thing, your using a rock to do a half ass job and now look like an ass been there done that.
I think we all know patents and copyrights are not the same . Patents I think last long enough imo and copyrights if defended last at least the lifetime of the artiest also imo right too. GRS , Lindsay and Tira's will have to keep up the good customer service and they will. New engravers can buy cheep tools and if they get good will need good tool to get better Hmmm say Grs or the others.
 

Dave London

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Memorymaker, you are just wrong, anyone is free to come up with their own product with out infringing on others work. Like Tiras electric machine.Instead of in my opinion stealing MTC.
GRS and Lindsay & Tira have spent a lot of money developing the products they sell, so you think it is alright for others to infringe on that. Many YouTube videos on how to make you own tools nothing wrong with that. Get my drift
I have been to GRS and Lindsay’s facilities aside from the creative inventors the equipment and employees is astounding. Also not some poor person in a 3rd world country working for slave wages working for a bunch of crooks
 
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Sam

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Protecting a design forever thru patents is just wrong in my opinion because it limits the competition forever and makes their products very expensive.

Patents can’t be protected forever. You’re allowed what…20 years to enjoy your exclusivity? Then i think it becomes public domain.
 

oniemarc

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I wonder what kind of world we would be living in if patents lasted forever...or a lifetime. A whole lot of products would be unavailable to the general public. Cars...tv's...microwaves to name a few. That said...I understand both sides of the story. But you also need to remember that most buying a "knockoff" of anything really, do it because they either can't afford the real deal or because at that point in time, it's not (yet) worth the money to them.
I'm running the andu footcontrol graver at the moment, simply because with this whole covid thing going on, I don't have the money to spend on a Lindsay. While I'm running the andu, I'm saving up for a Lindsay classic with banknote handle. And while I'm saving up, I can run something similar and get a feel for engraving with basically the same tool. When I started this journey into engraving, I wasn't sure if I would be falling in love with it or I would hate it. Didn't take me long to figure out, but I would have never dropped close to 2000 dollars for a Lindsay just to see if I liked it. Now I know which system I like and prefer, so I will be buying a Lindsay when the time comes. Even though it will be costing me even more because of import taxes, which really add up too. Since I don't run a business in jewelry or engraving, it all comes out of my own pocket.
Buy cheap, buy twice? I would never get rid of my andu for the simple fact that he made me a tool that made me fall in love with this art. My first "real" graver. That's history in the making for me and my family...my son in particular. And...let's face it...he made me save up for that Lindsay, which I would have never had done, if I didn't get his graver first...
 

Memorymaker

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Memorymaker, you are just wrong, anyone is free to come up with their own product with out infringing on others work. Like Tiras electric machine.Instead of in my opinion stealing MTC.
GRS and Lindsay & Tira have spent a lot of money developing the products they sell, so you think it is alright for others to infringe on that. Many YouTube videos on how to make you own tools nothing wrong with that. Get my drift
I have been to GRS and Lindsay’s facilities aside from the creative inventors the equipment and employees is astounding. Also not some poor person in a 3rd world country working for slave wages working for a bunch of crooks
Dave ...... please read my post again. I agree that patents should be there to allow inventors to recoup their investment and establish a market and brand. I don’t agree that they should be permanent. It limits competition and keeps prices extremely high just like the example in this thread. Crockettman has a $30 knockoff while the Lindsay’s cost thousands. It makes it VERY expensive just to see if you like engraving. Trust me ...... I have all the major manufacturers products and have spent a fortune just to see that I will never be good enough to make the beautiful work that you do. These guys have built a reputation for quality equipment and service that is well deserved and people will buy their equipment because of the quality, reputation for service and resale value. However, it makes it near impossible for someone to try their hand at it unless they have a lot of excess income so it limits the marketplace and the art. I am not wrong.
 

Memorymaker

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I wonder what kind of world we would be living in if patents lasted forever...or a lifetime. A whole lot of products would be unavailable to the general public. Cars...tv's...microwaves to name a few. That said...I understand both sides of the story. But you also need to remember that most buying a "knockoff" of anything really, do it because they either can't afford the real deal or because at that point in time, it's not (yet) worth the money to them.
I'm running the andu footcontrol graver at the moment, simply because with this whole covid thing going on, I don't have the money to spend on a Lindsay. While I'm running the andu, I'm saving up for a Lindsay classic with banknote handle. And while I'm saving up, I can run something similar and get a feel for engraving with basically the same tool. When I started this journey into engraving, I wasn't sure if I would be falling in love with it or I would hate it. Didn't take me long to figure out, but I would have never dropped close to 2000 dollars for a Lindsay just to see if I liked it. Now I know which system I like and prefer, so I will be buying a Lindsay when the time comes. Even though it will be costing me even more because of import taxes, which really add up too. Since I don't run a business in jewelry or engraving, it all comes out of my own pocket.
Buy cheap, buy twice? I would never get rid of my andu for the simple fact that he made me a tool that made me fall in love with this art. My first "real" graver. That's history in the making for me and my family...my son in particular. And...let's face it...he made me save up for that Lindsay, which I would have never had done, if I didn't get his graver first...
Exactly
 

JJ Roberts

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I purchased Lindsay's engraving tools because of the power to cut hard gun steel and you only need an air compressor. J.J.
 

Sam

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I wonder what kind of world we would be living in if patents lasted forever...or a lifetime. A whole lot of products would be unavailable to the general public. Cars...tv's...microwaves to name a few. That said...I understand both sides of the story. But you also need to remember that most buying a "knockoff" of anything really, do it because they either can't afford the real deal or because at that point in time, it's not (yet) worth the money to them.
I'm running the andu footcontrol graver at the moment, simply because with this whole covid thing going on, I don't have the money to spend on a Lindsay. While I'm running the andu, I'm saving up for a Lindsay classic with banknote handle. And while I'm saving up, I can run something similar and get a feel for engraving with basically the same tool. When I started this journey into engraving, I wasn't sure if I would be falling in love with it or I would hate it. Didn't take me long to figure out, but I would have never dropped close to 2000 dollars for a Lindsay just to see if I liked it. Now I know which system I like and prefer, so I will be buying a Lindsay when the time comes. Even though it will be costing me even more because of import taxes, which really add up too. Since I don't run a business in jewelry or engraving, it all comes out of my own pocket.
Buy cheap, buy twice? I would never get rid of my andu for the simple fact that he made me a tool that made me fall in love with this art. My first "real" graver. That's history in the making for me and my family...my son in particular. And...let's face it...he made me save up for that Lindsay, which I would have never had done, if I didn't get his graver first...

It'd be awful if one party had eternal exclusivity. In the big scheme of things it's for the betterment of society and mankind that inventions ultimately fall into public domain.
 

oniemarc

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That was my point exactly. In the case of the Lindsay gravers, it would be safe to say that he would have never had the patent in the first place if no steamengines were ever invented. Basically the exact same principle. One could defend he based his patent on a borrowed idea in the first place. I don't mind he did though...progress is needed always and brings both joy and hurt.
 

Goldjockey

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It'd be awful if one party had eternal exclusivity. In the big scheme of things it's for the betterment of society and mankind that inventions ultimately fall into public domain.
This is true. Viagra is now off patent for example. Whether that is a good thing or a bad thing is completely subjective.
 

silvermon

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I thought a patent only lasted for a certain number of years to give the inventor time to recoup development costs, establish the brand and develop the business without competition. I would have thought that Lindsay’s patent would have been in force longer than the patent permitted. I agree that knockoffs most times are not as good as the original in most cases. Although, sometimes they are better. When there is a price difference between the original and the knock off is a factor of 10 or more then something is wrong. Prices typically go down as the patent expires but this hasn’t happened with the major engraving equipment companies.

That said, I appreciate that GRS, Lindsay and Tira’s engravers are very high quality and built to last lifetimes. I know because I own all 3. However, many people are kept out of engraving because of the high cost of buying the equipment and education. The cheaper knockoffs allow people with less disposable income see if they have the talent and drive to learn to engrave without draining their life savings.

Protecting a design forever thru patents is just wrong in my opinion because it limits the competition forever and makes their products very expensive.
Generally speaking, patents last twenty years. There are exceptions. Most companies will file derivative patents for improvements (Lindsey has filed at least one) not to stop other companies necessarily but to stay ahead to them in technology.
 

silvermon

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“That was my point exactly. In the case of the Lindsay gravers, it would be safe to say that he would have never had the patent in the first place if no steamengines were ever invented. Basically the exact same principle. One could defend he based his patent on a borrowed idea in the first place. I don't mind he did though...progress is needed always and brings both joy and hurt.”


During the patent process, the government puts 18-36 months of research into prior art and its relativity to the new patent application. When you read a patent you will see a list of reference material the government considered. Some of the documents are supplied by the patent applicant. It is a good idea to help the government in this case, because they have sole discretion. For Lindsey to get his patent, he proved to the government that what he did was new and different, not obvious, and not prior art. One government investigator made the decision without outside influence. Only very large companies can influence the USPTO, and not very much. The patent regime in the US was designed by the founders. They saw it as critical, and was one of their earliest accomplishments. Ben Franklin was a strong supporter and influence on patent law. Interestingly, he is also the first open source adherent in our history. He applied for and obtained many patents which he then made free to the public. His potbelly stove design was given freely, adapted quickly, and saved many lives.
 

oniemarc

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“That was my point exactly. In the case of the Lindsay gravers, it would be safe to say that he would have never had the patent in the first place if no steamengines were ever invented. Basically the exact same principle. One could defend he based his patent on a borrowed idea in the first place. I don't mind he did though...progress is needed always and brings both joy and hurt.”


During the patent process, the government puts 18-36 months of research into prior art and its relativity to the new patent application. When you read a patent you will see a list of reference material the government considered. Some of the documents are supplied by the patent applicant. It is a good idea to help the government in this case, because they have sole discretion. For Lindsey to get his patent, he proved to the government that what he did was new and different, not obvious, and not prior art. One government investigator made the decision without outside influence. Only very large companies can influence the USPTO, and not very much. The patent regime in the US was designed by the founders. They saw it as critical, and was one of their earliest accomplishments. Ben Franklin was a strong supporter and influence on patent law. Interestingly, he is also the first open source adherent in our history. He applied for and obtained many patents which he then made free to the public. His potbelly stove design was given freely, adapted quickly, and saved many lives.
Just because it's a borrowed principle, doesn't mean he did nothing innovative or new. Application is totally different and the piston design is also completely different. However, the principle of having air compress in one chamber and releases that pressure in another chamber by moving a piston is something that had been done. That's all. I never meant to make it sound like he didn't have the right to patent his design, because he stole it or anything like that.
There are many inventions are were re-invented and patented...and I would think almost all patents would be valid. Allthough I do know at least one story, in which case an invention was stolen and patented by the "other party". As long as there hasn't been filed for a patent it is fair game i suppose. Which doesn't make it right though.
 

707chrisa

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Funny old world we have the only thing you rely own are your mistakes most every thing else some one helped you with .
 

oniemarc

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With all this talk about patents and rights, I forgot to ask if anyone is interested in seeing some comparisson cuts from the andu footpedal version. I only have that one and a homemade graver(Shaun Hughes type), but I'm more than willing to make some(amateur) cuts varying in depth and such between at least those 2. If anyone pitches in with some cuts like that from other systems would be quite interesting.
Just let me know and I will cut some lines this weekend in some steel and/or stainles for instance?
 

Sam

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With all this talk about patents and rights, I forgot to ask if anyone is interested in seeing some comparisson cuts from the andu footpedal version. I only have that one and a homemade graver(Shaun Hughes type), but I'm more than willing to make some(amateur) cuts varying in depth and such between at least those 2. If anyone pitches in with some cuts like that from other systems would be quite interesting.
Just let me know and I will cut some lines this weekend in some steel and/or stainles for instance?

You can show cuts but don't post pics of the handpiece if it's in patent violation.
 

oniemarc

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It was my understanding that the violation was, because of the piston design. And the mechanism for the handcontrolled version. Piston had been solved by changing the piston design? But I'm not sure about that.
No worries though, if there is any interest, I will make sure to not post pictures of the handpiece itself.
 

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