A close look at L.D.N

[KCSteve]

Ed

You raise an interesting question (at least in my uninformed mind):
Is there an actual difference between palm push engraving and hammer & chisel?

It would seem that there should be some stylistic differences because they are such different methods, but I don't have enough knowledge to be able to say. Even if there don't have to be differences I'm thinking that some style conventions would have arisen due to the ease of doing X vs Y with the two methods.

 

[Ron Smith]

Steve, each has its own intended purpose, but your idea about style is probably on the mark. The hammer and chisel is for doing heavy work on hard metals, while the Burin is for doing very fine work, and shading, except where it comes to lettering and such. Lettering is so precise that you need the advantage of the burin to do the tedious accuracy required. The pneumatic tools combine the two rather nicely, but I still have trouble doing very small lettering with it.

As I see it, I think power tools crowning glory is in the fact that much of the tension is relieved while using the palm power tools, and likewise the hammer and chisel, verses the hand tools (burins). You cannot imagine the focus differences too. The hammer and chisel is similar too, when comparing it to the slipping problems of the burin. Since you are driving the tool with a hammer, there is virtually no slipping and/or worrying about it. The muscle required to push the hand tool in all applications varies drastically. The hammer and chisel in this regard is much less drastic in my opinion. The bolder the cut, the harder and more difficult the finnesse by hand, and the reqirement for sense of touch is magnified tenfold using it (palm tool)under all conditions, to include cylinder, concave, hard metals, soft metals, and then Large and small items.

So to sum up your question, Yes. There is a vast difference, but those differences are important for the well rounded, experienced engraver, because it extends your capacity to greater or wider perimeters and also your creativity due to a slight value of the higher lift of the hammer and chisel. And any thing that stretches your creativity possibilities and potential is worth while I feel..................but that is just me. I am grateful for having learned all methods, and I can apply them wherever they are best suited.

Another thing is the high frequency vibrations of the power tools presents some problems somtimes that aren't so noticable with the hammer and chisel and non -existand with the palm tool without power. Holding items to engrave them is a constant challenge and that vibration adds to this problem a bit, but those things are being overcome except for the time required to 'set things up" to engraver them. This cuts into your production somewhat, but it is still part of the game. This brings me to mention the types of vises required for the hammer and chisel verses the burin. You might have noticed, that for all phases of engraving, the vises that are being manufactured today are getting heavier and more versatile to accomodate these differences.

Hope this answers your question.

 

[John B.]

Hi KC Steve,
I had decided to stay out of this thread any more because I’d had my say.
But you’re question brings up an interesting point that I would like to address.
Yes, there is usually a visible difference between H&C cuts and those made by powered handpieces.
In most H&C work the progression cuts are quite visible upon close inspection.
These are the tiny marks in the cut’s walls that show how far the graver moved through the metal with each blow of the hammer.
The power handpiece usually imparts many more small blows to move the graver an equal distance.
This makes the progression marks both smaller and closer together and usually not visible without high magnification.
If progression marks are desirable because of the old time style of work being done most powered handpieces can be made to simulate the H&C by turning the strokes down to minimum and turning the power up.
Likewise, by taking more time and using very fast but light taps with an H&C the progression marks become almost invisible.
There is a lot less difference between power and push that can be readily discerned IMO.
There is a book called “Firearms Engraving as Decorative Art” by Dr. Fredric A. Harris
ISBN 0-9623996-0-4 that makes a detailed study of the progression marks made by H&C.
One of the good doctor’s premises was the most H&C engravers of old could be identified by these marks. I am not sure that I buy his observation.
Many H&C engravers, my self included, make bigger progression marks when we are in a hurry on lesser priced production work. And the old time working engravers did this just as much.
Just a word to friend Joseph.
This post is not too far off your original post, I hope.
Dr. Fred’s book shows and analyzes a lot of L.D. Nimschke’s beautiful work.
Thanks to Ron, Sam, Weldon and others for weighing in on this interesting thread.

Best to all, John B.

 

[KCSteve]

Thanks guys!

Ron - one of these days I want to learn H&C. Partly for the sheer fun of it, partly for that better feel of what's going on. Palm pushing I can do already, of course - just turn off the power. Not that I do a lot of it, but every now and then it feels more right to do something with the power off than on. Haven't done anything 'real' by hand yet because I can feel it wanting to go skating.

John B. - I'd seen the tip about emulating H&C by adjusting to lower speed / higher power.

So, for both of you, do you tend to see / do more 'long' cuts with H&C vs. Push? I'm thinking that when you're pushing you're (slightly) restricted in the length of the cut you can do before you get overextended / start to lose control. Conversely, with H&C I'm thinking certain cuts are harder to do because you have to move your body rather than twisting the vise. Or is that a difference between hand powered and air powered? If so we should be able to see a definite stylistic change as powered engraving came into vogue (something beyond simply doing 'more' because you can do it in the time allotted).

 

[ED DELORGE]

Hello Steve, Ron, John, and every one else. Godspeed. Steve, the simple and most basic difference between hammer and chisel and push graver work is, which hand you hold the tool with? With hammer and chisel it was at least ten years of everyday use before I could engrave what I thought was a perfect circle. The graver was in my left hand. The push graver I hold in my doninate right hand. I have seen students engraving perfect circles after only three days of practice with a power assisted push graver. I don't have anything against my hammer and chisel, I still use them sometimes when I am engraving a big heavy set of shotgun barrels that must be held in my bench vise, and I am glad that I have the skill to be able to use them. Now I am trying to learn how to set stones. It is all fun, I love it all.

Good luck, Ed

 

[chris]

Hi
Everybody
I believe that is a fake l .D .N not even the back ground punch work is half L D N quality all the shading is not quit right under pressure or not somethings not right with this engraving.sorry just my opinion.
Thanks Chris

 

[JJ Roberts]

Gentlemen...I still use hammer & chisel, push tool, and power assist. Occasionally, I get to engrave a reproduction Winchester Model 66 or Henry, and I am not comfortable trying to remove the brass receivers from the barrel so I engrave them with the barrels attached with the hammer & chisel while standing. I do all my game scenes with a push tool. I have students who build muzzel loaders who would rather work in the traditional manner. The traditional manner is not completely lost. Has anybody noticed on page 87 of LDN's book his transfer solution? Keep up the good work.

 

[Ron Smith]

I think you could be and are probably right Chris. The shading cuts are also the give away as I see it, along with the punch-dot techniques. The accuracy there is not on par of a Nimschke, but I assume we are talking about the spirit of the man and style rather than any particular example. I'm sure there were a lot of people that were trying to copy his success just as there is today, but you can capture a style, but the hard part is to capture the personality behind the style, and accuracy is the measure of anyones attempt. Unfortunately, as much as I would have liked to know the man personally, that is nearly impossible, but I see him and McKenzie in a very similar light, although McKenzie was better. There are only subtle clues that reveal the man behind the work and accuracy is one of them. The speed in which he worked is another. The size of the scrolls and the simplicity of the structures all indicate the forces he was working under, but there are not many indications of what he was really capable of other than his versatility, and that is an important factor in understanding the man. I think his imagination and versatility is what was the most inspiring aspect of his work for me, for the requirements of being an all around engraver conveys his stamina and endurance to learn all phases, not just master one aspect or phase of engraving, but to excel in any aspect of the art. But then, that is what most engravers of his time did. It was their occupation. They didn't specialize so much even though he got a vast reputation for his gun work, because they needed volume. I can only imagine the thousands of pieces he did and didn't record, and the variety of those pieces. But I have some idea, because I have a two scrap books of pictures, paper transfers, acetates, and drawings that I have done that people have never seen. It is a life time of work and I didn't record visually probably even a tenth of the pieces I did. I often feel like I must have engraved everything in the world by now. Of course that is rediculous.

Anyway, Nimsche was one of my main studies, along with all of the masters of my day, and I didn't experience an ability to be really creative until I knew all of the styles pretty intimately and even then, I must stay within some traditional boundaries.

He didn't spend a lot of time on his pieces, compared to the time requirements of design and execution of todays engravers, but he was skilled wth his tools and he had few limitations. He could have if he had been called upon to do it. He gained a lot of respect and probably made a good living at it, but he didn't do many masterpieces. That goes to show you however, if your designing skills are good, you will, like him, appeal to most humans and provoke a desire in them to have whatever you produce, and I think that comes back to imagination.

Interesting subject................
Ron S

 

[John B.]

KC Steve, to answer your last question.
When I use H&C I mostly stand at a free standing, walk around post and vise.
This allows me to cut a complete scroll backbone or circle without stopping to turn the vise.
I also H&C at a foot operated potters wheel type bench when I want to sit.
Both of these set-up allow me to make long cuts without having to stop to turn the vise.
The potters wheel set-up is a great help in inlay work also.
It acts like an extra pair of hands when I have a punch in one hand and a hammer in the other and need to bend the wire around to be in line with the channel.
Although I push quite a bit I think Ron has done a lot more than me and can answer that question better.
I mostly use it for short shading lines or on banknote/bulino.
Ron has done a ton of lettering and other stuff this way and he, Robert Swartley and Winston Churchill are some of the American experts of this method of engraving on firearms and also other products.
Best, John B.

 

[Roger Bleile]

John,

When you use the potters wheel vise do you cut with the chisel pointed toward yourself the way I saw Neil Hartleip do it or do you still cut with the chisel pointed away from you like when standing?

Thanks,

Roger

 

[Ron Smith]

John and Roger, I am pretty unorthodox in my hammer and chisel techniques, but I never saw anyone work with a chisel the correct way until about twenty five years into my carrer. I work across from myself, I guess like Neil Hartleip does or the way yu describe it, but I can do it the traditional way too. When I found out I was 'wrong" I went to the trouble to learn the "right" way. But you know, I always go back to the way I learned. I'll tell you why. I found that I could do a 180 degree arc before having to turn my vise. Since I started as a jewelry engraver, It didn't occur to me that you had to stand. the little jewelry vises didn't lend to gun engraving as they were lighter than the vises of today. I know I didn't have my vise mounted properly either because I was trying to do it sitting down. I still do it that way.

I think what you are describing Roger, is the Cole Agee influence, I am not sure. Maybe it is the American influence because we often didn't have the European teachers early on. what do you think? Had to learn it on our own.

 

[John B.]

Hi Roger and Ron.
I do often engrave back towards myself the way Neil did. But mostly for shading lines and then I use a much shorter graver when I'm cutting this way.
It's great for shading because you can see exactly where the point of the graver is at all times and it's easy to place the lines close together, especially if you don't have a microscope.
Neil used to cut that way always, shading and main lines both. I never developed the power to cut the main lines in this fashion as I was originally taught to cut using the European, some call the side hand, method.
And always seem revert back to that except for shading. Like Ron said it's hard to give up on what works for you.
Roger, I would guess you would have to say that with the European H&C the graver is driven at 90 degrees, from right to left (for a right hander). That is the advantage of a standing post or potters wheel. You can pretty much maintain that 90 degrees through out the cut.
Both Neil and Cole Agee engraved back towards themself as Ron mentioned.
I have often wondered where they got the idea, but probably from Asia.
As you know, this is a very common old method of engraving in India, China and Japan.
Most of the old Japanese engravers use one piece cutting tools about 4 inches long total and tap the back end with the point coming back towards themself.
Somewhere among all my stuff I have a few old black and white pictures of people in India both carving and engraving while sitting in the dirt and holding the work with their toes.
I wonder how long it would take me to cramp up in that position? Not long!
On a slightly different tack I have often thought about putting a side mounted T-handle on a power handpiece to get the advantage of shading back towards myself.
Wouldn't be hard to give it a try with a worm drive hose clamp fixed on a wood handle.
Just some more of my rambling, excuse me.
John B.

 

[Roger Bleile]

John and Ron,

Thanks for the feedback on your cutting techniques. I believe that we may assume that LDN did his hammer cutting in the "side hand" method due to his European background and knowing that is useful in the authentication of his work. I have also found Dr. Harris' book very helpful in that regard as well as studying LDN's pattern book and verified examples of his work. Regarding the authenticity of the piece pictured, which started this thread, I communicated my assessment to Joseph in a private message several days ago.

When I began learning to engrave with H&C I didn't know what I was doing and even though my brother had been engraving for a year or two, he was 3,000 miles away. In those days one didn't make many long distance calls due to the high cost in relation to one's income. So somehow I began in the side hand method. Looking back I have wondered that I didn't start with the chisel in my right hand and the hammer in the left since the increased dexterity of the right hand would help me better control the pitch and yaw of the chisel while all my left hand had to do was make the hammer hit the chisel. I guess I started in the traditional way because using a hammer to drive nails one holds the hammer in the strong hand.

I also was interested to learn that Cole Agee engraved toward himself. I was born too late to see him work. Though I have the book about him, there is little about his technique in the book.

John, I too have watched asian, particularly Japaneese engravers, cut in the method you described. Gun engraving executed by Japaneese trained engravers is usually very identifiable in that they use a German style scroll but the inner leaf cuts are angled in. I always attributed this to their cutting style which I also saw in Neil Hartleip's work. John, if you can find the picture you mentioned it would make a great addition to the historic pictures on this site.

At first blush it would seem to make sense to cut with the chisel point pointed toward yourself so you can more closely watch the point as it cuts. I have found however, that regardless of the method, if the engraver focuses too directly on the point he can more easily go off line. I have found that I need to keep my focus on the line slightly ahead of the point and my hand will keep the point where it belongs. This is the way I have explained it to beginners: When you drive a car do you look at the end of the hood or the road well ahead of the car? In trap or skeet shooting we focus on the clay pigeon not on the end of the barrel or front bead. Nearly every time my eye shifts from the clay pigeon to the barrel bead I miss the target. Likewise if, while cutting a spiral or border line, my focus shifts back to the point instead of the line ahead, I can go off line, however slightly. For those out there that do all of their engraving using a microscope, it may be different. I just got a microscope last week and can see that I'm focusing my eye closer to the tip. But then I have a long way to go before I get comfortable using the scope and can't imagine that I will use it for anything more than fine shading.

Does anyone else out there, using hammer & chisel, cut with the point toward themselves? If so tell us why and how you learned that way.

Thanks for reading and replies,

Roger

 

[Ron Smith]

More information about the Japanese, Cole Agee, style: I think I am correct, but that school of engraving was done with a flat chisel. I saw a man work that I know learned from Cole Agee, and that is the tool he used. I am not aware of him ever using a ninety degree tool. I saw right away that this would not serve my purpose, so I went to struggling with the square, knowing that you couldn't produce Kornbrath's type of work with a flat chisel.

Weldon Bledsoe, a local engraver used that style, and did wide bevel cuts and heavy work. He learned under Cole Agee. The first place I went to work had pictures of the staff that showed Cole Agee, Olin Thomas, and some other guys I didn't know by sight. Cole Agee was long gone when I went to work there. He was famous for his cattle brand motif which I am sure the older guys know about, but you younger guys might be interested in the history, I don't know.
Ron S

 

[John B.]

Ron and Roger,
Just a little more on this subject.
Roger, as you say, it is better to watch just ahead of the actual point.
I over simplified when I wrote about the point being easy to see coming back at you.
What I should have said is it's great to see the actual placement of the point when touching it to the metal to start a shade or other line. This is very easy when you engrave towards yourself.
It's also very easy to judge the distance you want to establish between your shade lines, even without a scope.
Also, as you said your hand will automatically adjust to keep the cut in the correct direction.
Like in your law career days, it's an auto reaction. Anyone except a drunk can touch their finger to the tip of their there nose and it's about the same with the direction of a graver.
If I come across those photos of Asian engravers I will try to post them.

Ron, did you know that Cole Agee was a full time gunsmith student at Trinidad College where both you and I did some instruction later?
He was a student back in the days when P.O. Ackley was a full time instructor there.
I don't really know where he learned to engrave, do you?
To the best of my knowlege there was no engraving instructor at Trinidad when he was a student.
But I know he did a little engraving there on the side.
As he was from Texas maybe he learned from one of the old guys there before he went to Colorado or during vacation time.
Cole sure did some nice old cattle brand engraving which now fetch a pretty penny from collectors.
Regarding a flat and a square. Our dear departed friend George Sherwood did nearly all his cutting with a flat.
He was pretty remarkable. Cutting with just the one corner he could even do Fine English or the most delicate shading.
He said he like a flat because to him it was just like having two sharp square gravers in one.
Sure wish I could do that!

Best to all, John.

 

[Bob Bullard]

I have a friend here in El Paso who knew Mr. Agee when he worked for Blumels saddle
shop and he told me that was about the time he started engraving, He also told me that
he went to Ft.Worth one time and spent the afternoon in his shop and he watched him
engrave a 41 Rem Derrienger(spelling?).and he had a couple of high school age boys
prep.guns for him to work, by the way he started and finished it while they was visiting.

 

[Andrew Biggs]

........Likewise if, while cutting a spiral or border line, my focus shifts back to the point instead of the line ahead, I can go off line, however slightly. For those out there that do all of their engraving using a microscope, it may be different. I just got a microscope last week and can see that I'm focusing my eye closer to the tip. But then I have a long way to go before I get comfortable using the scope and can't imagine that I will use it for anything more than fine shading.........
Roger

Hi Roger

No different with the microscope. Cutting the line becomes more intuative after a while. If you follow the point of the tool as it touches the line you pick up every lump and bump along the way. By looking ahead of the tool and seeing where you want to go then the hand seems to follow.............a bit like driving a car I guess.

Zen engraving?

Hi Ron

You raise some good points about the personality of the work coming through.

Back in the days when we did all our signwriting by brush and paint every signwriter developed several freehand styles of lettering called "flicky". I could drive around town and tell you all the names of the guys that did it as you recognised their style even though they were very similar to look at. It was the personality that gave it the individual look. Cant' do that now as it's all computer generated.

It does make me wonder about the way we get hung up about the minutia of the work. While we may strive for perfection in the work.............we can sometimes do away with the very thing that makes the work desirable in the first place. When we examine the work of Mother Nature, nothing is perfect and seemingly random, but every living organisim has it's own personality and beauty contained within it's own structure and is in harmony with it's surroundings.

My thoughts for the day.............a really interesting thread and some great reading.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Big-Un]

Roger, in response to your inquiry about cutting technique with h&c, I cut with the chisel placed in my left hand with the point exiting from my left wrist, tapping with the hammer held very loosly in my right hand, kind of swinging it in a pendulum motion, sort of rocking it back and forth. I'm looking at the point coming to me at about the 9:00 position, rotating as necessary to stay within the pattern, sometimes by turning the block, other times rotating myself around it. No one taught me this, it just seemed natural to me to do it this way. Hope this answers your question; and by the way, your book was one of the first I bought, along with Meek's book, right after you put in on the market. A belated thanks for writing it.

Bill

 

[Roger Bleile]

Bill,

Thanks for the compliment on American Engravers. Even 28 years later, I never get tired of hearing that my efforts are appreciated.

From the way you describe your technique it sounds like you are using what John (and now I) call the side hand method which most of us in the West use. Interestingly enough, I spoke with a long time engraver at the NRA convention on Saturday last who was engraving at the event. His name is Larry Parker and he engraves in what I call the asian method (chisel in left hand held between the thumb and forefinger, point facing the body). He also uses the foot wheel vise similar to what I saw Neil Hartleip use. The main difference between his method and Neil's was that he had a Magnablock on top of the footwheel spindle whereas Neil used a fixed drill press vise. Mr. Parker displayed some very profuse engraving and inlay work which did not show the characteristics I mentioned above in asian engraving. He explained to me that he did not use air assisted tools because his customers wanted to see progress marks in the cuts to insure that the work was done with hammer and chisel. I have never experiencced this attitude in patrons and his work was fine enough that one would need magnification to detect any progress marks. Anyway if someone wants progress marks all I have to do is turn my Gravermeister down to 600 strokes per minute and use a heavy handpiece.

I'm still wondering if anyone on this forum cuts H&C using the asian method or is Mr. Parker the only one left in the USA using it? Since Neil wrote an instruction manual using his technique, I suspect there are others.

Roger

 

[John B.]

Hi Roger,
To answer one of your questions:-
In my answer #52 above I mention that I often use the Asian way, back towards myself for doing the shading on H&C work.
Your American Engraver was and is a great resource for so many of us and thank you for signing my copy so many yeas ago.

Best, John B.

PS. I hope Joseph will pardon us all, we've strayed pretty far afield from his original thread of L.D.N.