A close look at L.D.N

[jdumars]

I've never used a machine to engrave, so it's hard for me to speak of the differences. But, I can say that fluency in any art requires oodles of practice. Mastery is in the fine details.

I wish I could engrave with push cuts, but so far it is completely eluding me.

 

[KSnyder]

In the end I guess it is what makes the world go 'round, h&c, power or push, drawing or computer,stand up or sit down, optivisor or microscope, hand made tools or store bought, hand sharpen or power hone.
It's all part of the art of engraving.
watch yer topnot,
Kent

 

[Ron Smith]

Benifits not discussed:
One of the most fantastic benifits of the power tools I think, and lacking in this discussion, is the relief of tension cause by slipping around on the metals due to the odd shapes, ie barrels, cylinders,, rings, goblets, bracelets, spoons, etc. This is one of the first things I noticed. One that had only used the power tools, would not be nearly so aware of this. Power almost eliminates the possibility of slipping when handled properly, thereby eliminating or minimizing the stress and anxiety connected to engraving. But I think one of the really useful advancements in engraving is the power hone, and sharpening fixture. It took me many years to learn to get my points right and consistent, particularly with the push tool, and no one to ask.

The power tools make it all soooo much easier, but that is good isn't it?

There are still however, some advantages to using the h&c. It is easier to operate at a higher lift, enabeling one to get around things sticking up etc., so if one is enclined to be cutting on about everything, it is benificial to be able to use the h&c.

As I see it, one of the greatest differences too, is in the commitment, endurance, determination, and practice required with the old tools before you can get any quality cuts and finesse. But then you have to give credit to the good teachers of today that can get the principals across for fast results. There were none in my time. The quality of teaching has also ascended to great heights right along with the tools. It is a great time to be an engraver, because isolation was one of the detriments of advancement, stuggling long periods of time before solving a problem. The beginnier had many forces against him in my day, and that has all changed. The point was that no one would know that, except the ones that were there. It is all part of our history and evolution, however. That will probably be forgotten in time too I suppose, except for those who are dedicated enough to try the old ways. It isn't practical or very profitable these days. Speed was pretty essential, and even then the garbage man made more money than the occupational engraver. Sad but true for such a demanding trade, experience requirement, and skill level to be successful. All this is to say you can see the passion, love, and sacrifices required to endure all of these conditions and remain active in the trade which is another thing. It was a trade and somewhat limited to what you could get for your work. It is an art these days, and the culture is much better acceptable of what it might cost to get quality work.

But long live engraving in whatever form!!
Forward!!
Ron S

 

[John B.]

Sam, thank you for your kind comments.
I'm afraid my classes were a little horse and buggy compared to what you do nowdays.
PS. Love your new friend.

Ron, as usual you make some great points.
My only fear with beginners and power tools is that some of those that can't afford them right away just never get around to making a start.
As long as you're not having to make a living at it right away a few slips and learning how to fix them can be a valuable part of the learning process, I think.
By the time they think they can afford power equipment some would-be good engraver have found other distractions.
Many don't realize that a pencil and paper and a little study material will get them a long way down the road before they even consider picking up a tool.
Now days there is just so much free and wonderful help such as these forums and your great books.
This kind of help wasn't around when many of us started.
Nothing is as valuable to learning as determination and some good classroom instruction.
And there are plenty of wonderful classes and instructors available today.
Todays beginners are blessed with plenty of information, instruction and a great bounty of tool suppliers.

Just my thoughts, John B.

 

[pappy]

When I used to repair molds and dies sometimes the insert with the company's logo would be damaged by tools and such closed in the mold. I used to TIG them up and cut them with die sinker's chisels and finish with files rifflers and stones. I was never great with them but in the end they did the job. I think that if we had powered engraving equipment I could have done a much better job in half the time. I truly appreciate chisel work, but at this point in my life and with all my injuries it is out of the question. I often wonder if Michelanglo had air chisels available to him would he use them, even to rough out the sculpture? Either way, it is the artist's hand that guides the tool. I will say, however, that when performing precision operations like scraping machine ways and lapping parts I do it by hand. By hand, I get a superior result than I can with a machining process. If I could get a better job with power, then I would do it that way. Hope no one is offended!
pappy

 

[joseph engraver]

Over one thousand people reviewed this post.Yet, few commented on the photos.No one noticed the slightlyirregular scrolls, the shading,punch work,or that slightly irregular line;or how L.D.N. solved the problem of how not to make the eagle and the snake not look like road kill by cutting some lines deeper, thus giving strength and a rounded effect to the subject And, not even one person paid the slighest notice of how he made the eagles eye look so good with one simple and confident cut.
Eighty % say that the hammer and chisel is soon to be history and I am in total agreement with that ven though I will die a diehard. Thank you friends for your input and comments.

 

[Sam]

Don't underestimate the talented group we have here, Joseph. Just because there were few comments on the photos is no indication that our members do not see and appreciate Nimschke's mastery of engraving. I think you'll get more comments if you start a thread with the same photos and discuss the how and why of his design.

 

[sdcoxx]

Joseph,
This thread has been insightful and informative.
Judging from the number of viewing and posts it has been a success...
More importantly, you made me look at the engravings again to see what I missed the first time....
Thanks,
Stephen

 

[KCSteve]

I did see most of the small 'errors' but I attributed them to the working conditions of the time and figured that few of them would be visible under normal viewing conditions.

One of the things Marty insisted on during our class was that you should only look at engraving with a loupe if you're doing it or buying it. For enjoying it the naked eye is the best.

 

[John B.]

Hi Joseph,
I still have my first drafted reply on my computer. It kinda unloaded on this thread of yours.
I had planned to cut and paste it as a reply but upon re-reading it I thought it might be unkind to both you and your friend.
Your friend undoubtably loves this piece and is very proud of it.
But I would question if it's a real LDN, personally. And I've been lucky enough to examine a lot of LDN's.
I've never seen one with this many elbows or such a badly punched background.
Even the little cheepy pistols he did were better done than this rifle.
There...... doesn't that seem unkind. Sorry, because it's just not in keeping with our Cafe.
Sam's comment came from a much better place, I think.
There is really nothing much constructive in my comment.
The only constructive thing about this reply is if it keeps just one beginner from believing that this was the quality of work that made LDN considered an icon.

Sorry Joseph, and to all cafe members for my rant.

John B.

 

[Weldon47]

John,

I would agree with the overall assessment about the origin of the work. It doesn't seem as well done as most of the LDN work I have had the opportunity to see in person or study in print. That being said, I suppose the work could have been done by him but under less than ideal circumstances. I know there is work of mine out there that would be considered pure ***p when compared with what I do now.
This part is for newbies and those just getting into engraving: When comparing what is now the "cutting edge" with work from LDN's era, I think it is important to remember that LDN and his peers were craftsmen (at least as I understand it) and though they were very artistic, they were not bent on creating works of art so much as earning a living. It would probably shock most of us to learn just exactly how fast he could produce some of the work we see (and how little he got paid for most of it as well). Nimschke excelled at coverage that was asthetically pleasing and also quickly done. That doesn't mean that he was limited to entry level simplistic work. He was capable of just about anything and when considering this, I like to think of him in "cat" terms: No matter how he fell he always seemed to land on his feet. What I mean is that when looking through (for example) the Wilson book of LDN photos and smoke pulls, it seems as if his creativity was without limit. He was always able to come up with a design (even in extremely challenging and odd-shaped areas) that worked well and looked pleasing to the eye.
I appreciate the direction Joseph was going with this thread and I should probably just shut up now!
Weldon

 

[John B.]

Thanks, Weldon.
Good to know that I'm not totally alone and off base.
We all have some lesser works around, as you said.
But LDN was a totally trained commercial engraver when he arrived in the USA.
And even his simple production work for Hartley & Graham reflected this.
Just my thinking.
Best John B.

 

[joseph engraver]

Here Is the truth behind this piece of work.Louis had a brother named Samual who was killed in the war of 1866.as a result this death put this now famous engraver into a great depression. As a consequence of this; the quality of work suffered. At the end of the war Louis was given a commision to engrave six rifles to be given as gifts to the new generals of Mexico.Who were replacing the ex presidents that had been recently bushwacked.At that time in history The Mexican currency took a crashing dive And as a result Louis was losing a nickle a day This and the fact that the man who killed his brother was named Pancho Sanches, the work suffered.This has been a fun post.Thanks, Joseph.

 

[Sam]

Interesting story. I've not had the pleasure of examining LDN works in person, but after comparing this gun to the photos and smoke pulls in the Wilson book, I have to agree with Weldon and John, and doubt it's LDN's engraving.

 

[Ron Smith]

My two more cents would be that Louis Nimschke was one of my mentors. I studied his smoke pulls religiously. I thought he cornered the market on design in his day, and the myriad of ideas he used. That book was my bible, and I highly recommend it for study. I would also like to say that a man's work might begin to degenerate a bit as he gets older. Poor eyesight and shaky hands, and burn out could all play a roll in ones deteriorating work, not to mention life struggles Joseph mentioned, but this generation of engravers are so far above that, design seems to me to be the most valuable factor which John was describing (pencil and paper), providing you get to see what Nimschke could really do when he wanted to, but relative to his time, practicality played a huge roll in his work, just like today.

I will always admire the contribution Nimschke made to the art, but it is wise to study them all. I feel this is where ones own portrayal becomes really creative and individual personality begins to emerge.

John B., my friend, you are absolutely correct and am with you 100%. I also hate to see one not get to enjoy the satisfaction of the art because one cannot afford it, so I would encourage anyone to get involved on the least expensive level. You can do that with four major tools. The hammer, chisel, vise, and one graver blade, and joseph proved that you don't even need a vise.

I assure you that you will enjoy the journey, whatever the tool. The frustration level might be a little more intense and enduring however.
Ron S

 

[Sam]

I paid over $100 for my Nimschke book around 1980. That was a big chunk of change in those days. Like you, Ron, I studied it from front to back and marveled at the works of one of the most prolific engravers we've ever seen. He could do it all, couldn't he? Lettering, scrolls, guns, jewelry...LDN had no limits I'm aware of, and inspired me to at least try my hand at little of everything. I show that book to every engraver that passes through. It's a shame it's so expensive and hard to find.

 

[Ron Smith]

Right on, ride on Sam!.............and versitility is essential to the well rounded engraver, and I am not sure anyone can compete with you in that arena, Sam. It also shows the importance of good material.

Rock on, buddy!!
Ron S

 

[Peter E]

I happened to be fortunate and was able to pick up a copy of R.L. Wilson's book on Nimschke for a good price. The dust jacket is knid of tattered on the edges but the book itself is in great shape.

For anyone that does not have a copy, one of his other books 'Steel Canvas' is a great book also. There are quite a few others actually.

Peter

 

[ED DELORGE]

Joseph, this is a great subject you have put on the table for discussion. However, I think it is not proper to lament the reduction in the use of the hammer. I think it is more important to remember a part of the history of engraving that has not been mentioned, I don't think. The two aged old metods of engraving have for thousands of years been either to chase the graver with the hammer or to push it with the palm. It is the push graver that I would like to emphasize. When I was in gun smith shcool back in 1980, learning engraving with hammer and chisel. I had an instructor who was a british trained gunsmith, Leonard Bull. When I showed him what I was learning with hammer and chisel, he mocked and said that is not how it should be done. He took a push graver out of his tool box and showed me how engraving was done in the factory where he worked as a lad. He said the engravers pushed the gravers and did all of the engraving in the receivers of the doubles before they were hardened. A few years later I met a jewelery engraver who only used the push graver. I tried and tried to use a push graver but with no luck. So, I stayed with my hammer and chisel. And later I bought McKensie's videos and watched him push a grave in steel like there was nothing to it. The thing that always captured my passion with the push graver was the fact that I could hold it in my dominate hand. But it was not untill Don Glasser invernted the 901 small palm graver for the graver max machine that I was will to make the leap. As I said, the push graver has been around for thousands of years, now it is just a little easier to push.

Thanks for all of the wisdom that you all bring to the table.
Ed

 

[Bama]

A little different view

I am just learning to engrave and I am enjoying it very much. I doubt that I will ever turn out some of the beautiful work that I have seen on this board. My hope is to just be able to cut some clean lines for the simple designs on the Patch Boxes I make for the Flintlocks I build.

Among us Flintlock builders we have the same debate over the use of "TRADITONAL or MODERN" tool useage.
I think the early builders were not only fine craftsmen but they were also business men. As craftsmen they wanted to build fine work and they did. As time went on in America it is very evident that the beautiful longrifles gradually dissappeared and were replaced by the undecorated arms we use today. WHY? Because of money.

You have the same thing in engraving. At one time there it was more important to produce beautiful work than it was quantity but that has changed to. Why? Because of money.

Today there are many builders of Flintlock rifles and they are producing beautiful rifles. Why? Mostly because they want to receate a part of history that has past by. What difference does it make what tools are being used to recreate this history as long as it is being done. Will we ever be able to totally reproduce the work of the early masters? Maybe, maybe not but at least there are those of us that care to enough to make the attempt.

I feel the same about engraving. You have craftsmen today that are producing extordinary work some are doing it with the old methods and some with the new. Gentelmen what difference does it make as long as the art of engraving lives on.

I personally tried H&C and was not doing very well, mostly because I did not know how to sharpen a graver properly. I decided to take a GRS class, basically to learn how to sharpen a graver if nothing else. I was amazed at how much easier it was to cut lines with the power graver over the H&C. My hands were not cramping and hurting after a few hours at work. I was enjoying my task.

Now that I have a better understanding of graver sharpening I go to the H&C and it is not so much of a struggle but I would never have learned that without help.