A close look at L.D.N

[joseph engraver]

I can’t imagine Louis D Nimschke, who once worked for the well to do, with an optical visor on his head or a compressor in the corner of his workshop. And he would never imagine the ability of today’s dedicated engravers using power tools and computers.
A pal of mine took these photos and sent them to me; a novice engraver can learn a lot from them. With his permission I post them for you to study. The current price of this rifle, which was engraved in 1872, is many thousands of dollars.
I have been very opinionated when it comes to power tools and the use of computers to create designs and engrave them. My reasoning has been that the hands, muscles, and eyes take time and repetition to be able to follow the brains directions accurately. And the brain needs time to understand. These modern tools are great time savers for trained engravers, but not for beginners. With the use of power driven tools and generated images, the discipline needed to achieve the highest levels of concentration and patience is seldom brought to their fullest potential. I am saddened by the obvious demise of the hammer and chisel as the principal tools used to embellish objects made of hard metals.
I have been doing a lot of deep thinking about the nature of us humans. We once used a sharp rock to scratch with; that was until something better came along. Why should we not do the same thing with yesterdays engraving tools? It is reasonable for technical tools to evolve to achieve more efficient means of executing engraving.
I am proud to have had the will and drive to have stood in front a vise with hammer and chisel and gone through disciplines required in order to learn the craft of engraving as it has existed for ages. I have realized that this method of engraving has become obsolete and will not continue and I believe that those skills and important disciplines will fade away over the next generation.

 

[richard hall]

Joseph, well said

 

[pilkguns]

I have been very opinionated when it comes to power tools and the use of computers to create designs and engrave them. My reasoning has been that the hands, muscles, and eyes take time and repetition to be able to follow the brains directions accurately. And the brain needs time to understand. These modern tools are great time savers for trained engravers, but not for beginners. With the use of power driven tools and generated images, the discipline needed to achieve the highest levels of concentration and patience is seldom brought to their fullest potential. I am saddened by the obvious demise of the hammer and chisel as the principal tools used to embellish objects made of hard metals.

Joseph, once again Thank you for your thoughts, I enojoyed your verbal insights years ago at the FEGA shows, and your written points today are equally as stimulating. I really think I agree with you with regards to layout and design issues. I do think there is a period of time required to absorb the spatial reasoning and design criteria that is necessary for good scroll, either individually or as a complete pattern and the necessary elements of basic art design issues that using computer generated scrolls or art layouts will hold back someone who is seriously desirous of excelling in this art. Ray Cover and I had a similar discussion a few years ago regarding computer tools.

That said, I don't think I can agree regarding using hammer and chisel as necessary to excel from a technical aspect with nice smooth concentric spirals. I learned with hammer and chisel and spent a decade working with them, and did some pretty good work with them. I taught hammer and chisel classes before I switched to air assist, and have taught classes with them for 14 years. Certainly it is necessary to develop muscle memory to control the tool, but I think the time necessary learn that muscel memory is far shorter with the air assist tools than the H&C method. That's been my experience anyway.

i look forward to other's thoughts on this matter, and thanks again for your wisdom. You and Ron Smith should be nominated Engraver Philospher Laureate

 

[Sam]

Hammer & chisel...yes, been there and done that. I have no regrets, and it's very satisfying to be able to engrave that way. That said, I can teach people to engrave in a fraction of the time using a GraverMach as opposed to hammer & chisel and push graver. I love the incredible control I get with my Airtact, and this enables me to do better work.

For me, the bottom line is the end result, not how the chips got on the floor. If you can execute beautiful engraving with ANY method you get my attention, admiration, and respect. I honestly don't look at engraving and think about how it was done, and I don't believe one method deserves more respect than another.

Use the method that makes you feel warm and fuzzy or gives you the best results.

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Joseph

I hear what you are saying and understand completely. I think we all have nostalgia for simpler times and lament days gone past.

But………………..Have things really changed all that much?

A bad cut with an air graver is still a bad cut. A dull tool still won’t cut properly. A scroll with a flat spot or kink is still a bad scroll.

The air tools have simply changed the power behind the handle. A piston/spring has replaced the hammer and muscle……………….but it still takes discipline and skill to use the air graver properly and produce a good engraving. It still takes years for your understanding of the engraving arts and techniques to develop properly.

Our optics have changed a bit from the old kerosene lamp behind a bowl of water days………………..thank goodness. Loupe, magnifying glass, optivisor, microscope are only tools that help some of us with bad vision otherwise we simply wouldn’t be engraving.

All of these modern tools have been a great boon for new people like me that are running out of life’s runway and professionals that have had body parts replaced because of repetitive strain injuries.

Computers, well they are only electronic bits of paper. Some people can produce fabulous stuff on them and others will always struggle……….same goes for pencil and paper.

Take heart Joseph, there’s still plenty of people around (some of them on this forum) that still like the old ways and I suspect that will never change……………….…….at the end of the day it’s still the imagination, discipline, knowledge, eye and hand coordination that creates the art. The tools themselves are only inanimate objects that are useless unless they are in the hands of a skilled craftsman……………..and that will never change.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[KSnyder]

Don't want to rile anyone up but I'll throw in my $.02 anyway.
From what I can see a classically trained h & C guy can do beautiful work with either method, (h&c or power), but......not many trained on power can go the other way and get the same or nearly the same result. Its kinda like driving a car, just about anyone can drive an automatic shift but lots of folks would be walking if they had to drive a stick (ie, manual transmission )at first, anyway.
To me that's why the power method has the much shorter learing curve, just not as much going on as with the hammer & chisel, the tools may be the same but the control of same is more difficult with h&c imho.
Kent

 

[pilkguns]

I hate to disagree with ya Ken, but I don't believe that H & C skills transfer to cutting power assisted. If you only cut with a push graver, then yes, the skills are immediately transferable, but H&C only engraver will have the same learning curve with power assist that a total newbie would because you have essential the same muscle memory in play. With H&C you have two different hands making motions that have no similarity at all with the movement required by push engraving.

As for the transmission comparison, LOL, I have different story as well. When I took driver's ed in high school, it was with an automatic transmission. I had never driven a car without a clutch before and on every stop my left foot went to find that clutch pedal. Maybe the Plymouth K car that we had for driver's ed had a longer than normal brake pedal pad, but my left foot would always catch the end of that and start downward. As the car start slowing too fast, I would push even deeper on that "clutch" and would off course stop even faster coming to more than a few screeching halts that the driver's ed instructor wanted to flunk me for. In fact, even though he passed me academically he refused to sign the insurance card which was the whole point of taking driver's ed in the first place. My dad went to the principal to get the card signed.

Are you coming to the Engrave-In this year Ken?

 

[fegarex]

I have to put my 2 cents here in as well.
There is no doubt that Nimschke was one of the true masters in his era and beyond. He also was known for designs that not only looked good but required the least amount of work to do. I'm guessing if any air assisted engraver were available to him he would be using one if he thought it would be faster. He began his engraving before the advent of electricity but I'm also guessing he would have been the first to get electric lighting if he could as well. Of course he didn't have access to a computer but he was one of the first to "mass produce" engraving by utilizing smoke pulls for patterns.
All that said, no matter if it is air assisted, hammer and chisel or push graver, the work is only as good as the person holding it. A computer will only "assist" in making a design faster and easier but it can't replace the artistic input. A great design still has to come from the mind first. Once the design is there, it must be cut by an extension of the body. Anything to make this faster or easier is just "icing on the cake".

 

[KSnyder]

Scott, I was referring to starting out with power, I guess I didn't state it correctly.
If a new guy / gal learns on power starting out they will progress rapidly, but if u hand them a h & c I doubt they/ most can muster it without a heck of a lot more practice and guidance.
As far as driving goes, most guys my age can drive a stick, but most young folks cant.
To me it's two different things.
watch yer back trail,
Kent

 

[Tim Wells]

Like a lot of folks I could care less how the thing was cut in general. The only difference to me would be in the "admiration factor" for lack of a better term. If I see a really well done job that I know was done with the "traditional" tool set I tend to have a little more appreciation for it as I know what kind of commitment and discipline that takes.

It is still beautiful regardless of how it was accomplished but when I see something like what Mr. Coggan has been posting for example, I know it was done with those basic tools and while it would look the same if it was done by his hand with a Lindsay or GRS handpiece, it does make me feel a little something more that I think I can simply call gratitude. You know what I mean? It's like; thanks for putting all those years and hours behind that hammer to be able to weild it with that much skill. I'm thankful for their diligence and patience.

However, my hat's off to all of you how ever you do your work.

 

[Peter E]

I love the work of L.D. Nimschke and the book of his work by R.L. Wilson is one of my favorites.

Thanks for posting it Joseph.

I don't have enough experience to comment on H & C vs. pneumatic, I just hope some day to be able to create work I am proud of.

Scott, as someone that has driven and owned manual transmissions almost exclusively, I have experienced the same situation you spoke of. A couple of times renting cars I had a heck of a time keeping my left foot from stepping on the brake!

A lot of good viewpoints have been provided.

Thanks,
Peter

 

[Ron Smith]

My two cents:
I think Joseph was lamenting the dedication, commitment, and drive factor of the old methods which I often do my self. It also sadens me to think they are on the way out, but you know what? I think there will always be a few people that will want to experience the "old way" and will want to come into contact with the love and dedication required to conquer those old tools, so don't dispare joseph. I could be wrong, but I bet I am right. And just like the revival of our trade today, there will be a revival of the purist method of all, and the love that goes along with it. We love it too much to let it go. Others will too. We love with great passionn, and can do the purist form of the art, but it is the art we love is it not?

I also can understand the economic factors and such of today that need to be acounted for, and the need to learn faster to be able to keep this trade a viable factor in the work force, and even though it was a greater sacrifice for us maybe, there is an element of relativity here that cannot be denied. Now Joseph, imagine trying to come through what you did learning in todays rush. That same sacrifice you made would be probably be tenfold trying to compete in todays market and in making a living at it. I hate to even think about it.

Fortunately along with the modern tools, us "old guys" raised the awareness of the culture so that these young whipper snappers can do it, enjoy it, and also make a living at it. I love to see engraving and engravers thriving no matter how it is done, but there is a special place in my heart for the old ways that I cannot and will not let go of. They were and are the vehicles of our success. How can we abandon them? I can't, and I don't think you can either, but the main thing is we understand each other and those like us, so we are not alone. Some day somewhere, some time, we will touch the hands and minds of another just like ours, and the old ways will live again and remember.

I think this is what you are trying to say my friend, and you said it well, but this is to let you know, you are not alone. The only ones who can truly understand are the ones that have been there. This trade cost you your economic welfare, but your love is bigger than that, and I understand. Us old tool users are with you in that regard. They understand too, for we can boast that we can do it all and do it well with any engraving tool you might put in our hands. Even a fish hook. I admire that!
And that is my two cents on the subject.
Ron S

 

[KCSteve]

My feeling is that powered gravers do help newcomers. With a push graver or hammer and chisel you have to spend some time learning to cut a line. Not necessarily a lot of time, but it still takes some time and once you learn it you'll still have to pay attention to doing it for a significant time.

With a powered graver any idiot can cut learn to cut a line in 30 seconds. I know - I did it.

But cutting a line isn't engraving, anymore than a infant's crayon scribbles on the wall are art. It's learning to use those lines that's engraving. And I think the power gravers help here too, but only for beginners. Bring one of the Masters from the past into today and they'll have an air powered graver under control in an afternoon. I suspect they'll be doing their 'normal' work with it in a under an hour (I'd say minutes but I agree - H&C is a whole different set of muscle memories). The only 'changes' I see resulting in a past Master's work would be more - more detail because the optics let them see to do it and just more engraving overall because they can. When they can make a cut in a minute that took them 10 by hand, well they might not make 10 cuts instead but I'll bet they'd make at least 5.

But for a beginner, there's where the true magic can happen. If I'm working on a simple pattern as a beginner and I'm push graving vs. power graving then here's where the difference comes in: with push graving I have to pay attention to my technique to make sure I get a reasonably good line and don't go skidding wildly across the plate to stab myself. With a power graver I pretty much just concentrate on following the pattern - I'm working on getting a consistent line rather than just a line. It's a small difference but it lets me pay more attention to what I'm engraving.

Computer printed patterns - once again the benefits for a past Master would be... interesting. I suspect that they'd find them usefull more for 'production' work - putting the same design onto all flutes of a cylinder and such than anything else. For us beginners it's a way to be able to work on our cutting separate from our design. Referencing Ron Smith's books on Scroll Design, the practice plates in the self-study kit are very valuable. When you actually cut a design you learn things about it (and the principles behind it) that you won't learn any other way.

Add in the internet and these forums and you also get to work on your design with people all over the planet.

Joeseph:

Considering the high quality of your work with a fishhook and a rock, I can only imagine what you'd do with a power setup. Won't make it any better, but with it easier to do I'm sure you'd do more of it.

 

[Dulltool]

I am relatively new to engraving.... But I do come from a long line of engravers. My Grandfather John W. Hanck and his two brothers started engraved for a living in the very early 1900's. He has been gone now for 42 years but I knew him well enough to know that he would of jumped at the opportunity of using a power assist graver had they been invented. I do know that he did gave up the fountain pen when the ballpoint showed up on the scene...

For the record I am in total awe of the H&C guys.

 

[Sam]

There are hunters that prefer to hunt with a bow as opposed to making a 300 yard shot with a scoped rifle. There are those who would rather take game with black powder instead of a modern gun, even though there are more efficient ways at putting meat on the table. Many folks love outtings in antique cars which are primitive in comparison to cars of today, and the classic fountain pens and mechanical watches are enjoying a Renaissance of their own. I believe that hammer & chisel engraving, like mechanical watches, fountain pens, black powder, and classic cars, will never die.

 

[Weldon47]

It's really all about getting the art inside of you out and onto the canvas you are working on!

Weldon

 

[Christiaan]

I can't comment on methods used as I haven't used them. I engrave leather with hand tools. I must say I really enjoy reading all the thoughts. Thanks!!! This is great keep it up. Creative minds have creative thoughts.

 

[Roger Bleile]

All of the opinions expressed on this thread are valid and insightful.

I started with H&C, moved to an EngraveR, then to a Gravermeister. Along the way I learned to push engrave to do fine things I couldn't do with my power equipment. Very soon I will be getting one of the newest air assisted tools which will probably eliminate much of my push graver work (but not all, I expect).

My brother and I were discussing this the other night and the one thing we came up with on this topic that hasn't been mentioned here is the effect that air assisted tools have had on engraving schools. The beginner courses usually run about 5 days. Consider this: If there were no power assisted tools and people in the beginner classes had to start from scratch with H&C or push tools, how far do you think they would get in 5 days??? Many of you reading this have been to beginner classes or taught them. I have never been to one.

So I ask you: How far would beginners get in 5 days without power driven tools? Since my brother and I both started with the old ways we think that most of the schools would not exist because students could not get far enough in 5 days to feel that they accomplished anything. This is different for schools like ESU where students are learning for a whole semester or longer and they are using push gravers on flat, soft copper plates rather than hard gun steel involving the complex surfaces of guns.

I'm sure there are many different experiences but in my case I didn't learn to use manual tools in a week but then I wasn't in a formal school either. Could it be that some "unpluged" engravers think that people using power assist haven't paid their dues to the craft? What do you think?

Roger

 

[John B.]

Hi Roger,
I think you are on to something time-wise.......Kinda.
For about 25 years my beginners "Basic Engraving" classes were 10 days.
They were based on starting with H&C and push and offered only an introduction to powered handpieces.
I do believe they covered quite a lot more ground than I see being covered nowdays.
Metal preparation, metal finishes, transfers, sources and suppliers were covered.
As far as the actual engraving it covered everything from basic cutting to game scenes and sculptured engraving.
Tool (graver and punch) making were also covered in hands-on detail.
As a final course project students fabricated a steel belt buckle which contained these types of engraving.
They then bent this buckle to a curve in a simple fixture they were shown how to make, were instructed in how to solder the findings to the back, French Gray and ink the finished item.
Although I had then and have now every type of power equipment that I am aware of I question if more could have been covered if the classes had have been based on the use of power.
As an example, most students returned the following year for Advanced Engraving and by then many came with power tools.
All of these classes covered a set exercise each day.
Almost without fail the students still using H&C and having a decent stand-up, walk-around posts finished the work first and had just as good quality.
This is for students who had continued to practice their engraving during the year.
My guess is that the 10 days of basic H&C played a part in this.
I have no problem what so ever with people moving over to power later, but I still believe that a background in H&C and push pay's big dividends in a later career.
Just my thoughts, pardon the rambling.

Best regards, John B.

 

[Sam]

John, you're a great thinker and your ramblings are among the best posts this Cafe sees! You've probably taught more people to engrave than all of us combined, and your comments are very much appreciated.
~Sam