A very awkward situation

[Sam]

A few days ago I received an email from a collector who was inquiring about having some engraving done on a knife and a gold watch. I replied with a link to a photo of my personal watch that I built and engraved. The collector emailed me back and said "You wont believe this, [name removed] sent me this same picture and said he did that watch!!!" He forwarded me the email from the engraver which also included a photo of the signet ring I wear which I posted here in the Cafe to show how I hold rings for engraving. The collector said that in phone conversations, the engraver claimed to be working on the ring that is shown mounted in my vise.

I phoned the engraver and he denies this ever happened. The collector says he has no reason to lie and that the engraver emailed photos of my engraving which he claims as his own work.

The moral of the story: Any photo you post on the internet is just a right-click away from being copied. I neglected to put my ©Copyright 2008 - Sam Alfano - iGraver.com on the pics to identify and protect them. It only takes a minute to do with your graphics application, and might help you avoid an uncomfortable situation like this.

~Sam

 

[SamW]

I don't know why after all these years but I am always astounded by the nerve/brass/greed/stupidity (take your pick) of human nature. Your copyright advise is well founded. TOS

 

[tldcowboygear]

Sam,

I can only sit here and shake my head at the audacity of the engraver who did this, and then lied! I only hope that it does not deter you folks from posting photos. I confess that I down load them. I study them, pick them apart, try to draw them, blow them up, everything I can to learn from them but I would NEVER claim them as my work, heck I have to shave this face every morning and look myself in the eyes. Anyway, I thing it is a travesty and a dishonor to your generous teaching manner.

D.C.

 

[Sam]

Keep in mind that there is no evidence other than forwarded photos. The alledged claims were made via phone conversations. I can't assume the engraver is guilty. The point of this thread is not to point a finger of blame, but to encourage everyone to put at ID on any and all photos you have online. I get lazy about this sometimes, and it only takes a minute to do.

*** place a copyright on your photos.
*** if you're going to forward photos of another engraver's work, get permission first.

~Sam

 

[Dan Grubaugh]

Sam, What is ithe process for getting a copywrite on things such as drawings? What is the cost involved? I don't think anyone would want to copy any of my drawings as of yet, but it would be nice for future needs. It is, in my oppinion ( and probably many others) a disgrace to try and take credit for another man/woman's work!! People that do so are very "low grade" and have no morals or ethics. Thanks for the information.
Dan

 

[Weldon47]

Good advice, Sam!
I had a similar situation happen to me (mentioned here in depth in another post some time ago) . For those who didn't read it: A photo of my work was presented by someone else to their prospective client as work they had done. Their client found the same photo on my FEGA page and contacted me. I don't know how it all ended up but I did see photos of what I believe to be the commission in question. (Results were not quite the same).

Being influenced by someone you admire is ok; Directly copying their work and claiming originality is not, and finally; showing photos of another's work and claiming it as your own is a very poor reflection of your character and integrity!!!


Weldon

 

[pierre]

I don't think that if you had put copy rihgt on your photo that the " other engraver " don't do what he do.
If we put any photo on the net we have to know that other will use it.
I don't know why it's embarrassing for you, you're not guilty, if i was on your place i'll be proud to be copied, ( that's mean that your're good in your work) and the private customer will certenly see a big difference betwenn the fotos and the work of the other engraver.
I have already see Lovenberg copy but there's no comparison.

 

[FANCYGUN]

Copyrights, just like locks, are for honest people Sam. Using someone elses photo and claiming it's your work is outright dishonesty and deception. When I first read this, I quickly wondered if this is the same person who used a picture of your engraving on his own web site that you told us about a few years ago.
As they say."you can't fix stupid"

 

[Raul Hinz]

I am a fairly new engraver in the comparison to some of the members of the forum. I love to see the work that you all do, I study , and learn, my work is not the same caliber but I am proud of my work .
So when I hear engravers that copy and take credit for others work makes me sad for the total art of engraving. Engraving to me is a personal signature on a canvas that is timeless. so I'm going to do my best to
leave my style and signature on it .
Raul Hinz

 

[Sam]

True, Marty, but not having your name and/or copyright on photos just makes it that much easier. As a graphics geek I know it's very weak protection, but had mine been marked this might not have occurred. I still think it's best to clearly establish ownership.

I've had my graphics ripped off for years. I've finally decided to make my collection available and will announce that soon.

 

[Ken Hurst]

Totally beneath contempt ! Ken

 

[Raul Hinz]

Ken is "totally beneath contempt " the same as lower than a snakes belly?
Raul Hinz

 

[leschowe]

Hi Sam,
It is really a shame that this sort of thing happens. It is not only detrimental
to an artist like yourself but it can also result in those of us who are new to engraving
loosing much of our learning experience. This is especially shameful after all you
have done in creating and running this web site.

I would like to point out, for what it's worth, that for someone who low enough
to steal credit for someone else work that removing a copyright note from a copied
photo is just a crop away.

Les Schowe

 

[richard hall]

that is like stealing art work,****es me off. sam, you still need to explain like dan grubaugh asked about how to get the copyright. like others that look at the cafe daily, ive copied four-one inch folders of information and photos for reference,but, thought that was alright, not sure now?

 

[Roger Bleile]

About 20 years ago I was at a gun show when one of my friends said a dealer there had a Colt he claimed that I engraved. It is not unusual to see a piece of one's own work at a show but I went to have a look. I immediately saw a Colt SAA that was a copy of a piece of mine that had been published. The dealer was one of these guys who found low priced engravers to do guns for him for immediate resale. I asked if I could see the gun. After looking for any signature (at least the engraver didn't copy my name) I asked who engraved it. The dealer replied in a boastful tone "That was engraved by Roger Bleile." I asked if he had ever met Roger Bleile and he replied no. I informed him that he was talking to Roger Bleile and that the gun was a poor copy of one I did. You should have seen that weasel squirm and go into a verbal tap dance!!! I must confess that it was somewhat inflating to think that someone would have my work copied and invoke my name as if I were someone special. My guess is that the engraver was shown pictures and asked to copy the gun and did not know that the dealer intended to misrepresent the origin.

Question: Once you engrave something for someone and have been paid for it, have you also sold any copy rights to the design thereon?

Roger

 

[Sam]

Richard: You can copy Cafe threads, info, and photos for reference. That's what we're here for. Obviously a member cannot sell that info because that's not permitted. At the bottom of every Cafe page is a Copyright which makes it clear that this isn't public domain material, but under copyright protection. It's here for everyone's enjoyment and education, but not for resale or to post on other sites, etc.

To copyright a photo or other work, just put ©Copyright 2008 Your Name Here. That's sufficient to establish ownership of the photo, design, or written work. If you want to go step further and fill out forms and pay money, the work can be registered. It's my understanding that this is not really necessary, but I'm not an expert in copyright law.

 

[Weldon47]

Roger,
A somewhat different (never the less maddening) twist to this happened to my dad. Years ago he delivered a job to a client at a gun show. At the next show dad was walking around when he spotted the same gun on a different collectors table. When he went over to have a closer look he was surprised to see a factory letter accompanying the piece listing the work as having been done at the factory. Dad asked if he could look at the gun & pointed out his signature. He asked the collector who that was & the guy didn't know. Dad walked away but never forgot who, what & when.

The lesson is that there are (have been/will be) unscrupulous, shameless people in all walks of society. We are occasionally challenged (personally) by extreme cases like the ones mentioned here & this is (unfortunately) not all that surprising. Our conduct should be one of consistent, ethical and professional behavior. Those who choose otherwise will eventually expose themselves to all for what they really are!

Just my thoughts,

Weldon

 

[richard hall]

thanks sam, myself, i love reference material, a place of ideas. iam almost 60 now and sometimes forget, that all are not honest nor considerate of others. i beleive you have to treat others as you would want to be treated. its a shame its just not this way. will it get worse ???? i would now caution all members not to post their personal firearms or collection of stuff that cannot be replaced by insurance, you dont want to invite trouble, if they will steal an other mans ideas without a conscience then i suggest we dont advertise.

 

[jimzim75]

The level of engraving required to copy a style as technical as yours Sam would have to be considerable.
Anyone trying to say that what they can do would be caught out with the first job submitted, if they
don't have the talent. An engraver who does have that amount of talent would find it distasteful to
have to do that sort of thing. At least I would.

Coming from a jewellery back ground, copyrights mean nothing. Sad to say, unless your ready to defend
them. Even paying the money to register them, does nothing unless you will go to court. Or you have a friend
named Dominic from Detroit. Dom takes care of all my needs and heaven help you if I find one of my designs
on your site. Just kidding .........Maybe. Jewellery can be a rough life. What with smash and grab, and
the gold market. The only defense I've learned is to make my thing so techniquely hard to copy
that most people don't try.

 

[Mike Cirelli]

One thing is for sure the collector would have found out the hard way, That it wasn't Sam's work after it was done.