A very awkward situation

[Marcus Hunt]

Jim, you've got it in one. Any engraver worth his salt couldn't be bothered to copy another's style; it's too much like hard work. The only time being able to copy is of benefit is for restoration work and even then it's soooooooo borrrrrinngggg.

Could you please tell us how to put this copyright logo onto the photos Sam? I think it's bang out of order someone else passing off your photos as their work. I wonder what happens when the client actually commissions this engraver and sees the finished result? It's happened to my father that someone's faked his work but you'd have to be Mr Magoo to think that it was the real thing.

 

[Tom Curran]

Marty, I use pictures of your work all the time to bring in the clients.

When they ask why my work doesn't look like the photographs I sent, I explain that photos alway make the work look better than it really is.

Hacking away in NY.

Tom

 

[FANCYGUN]

Tom
The old Bait and Switch scam huh? Now I know why I dont hear from anyone in NYS anymore..

We all beg, borrow and steal to some extent without ever really knowing it. I always told my art students to always use reference materials. That is called "working from" something which is totally different than a flat out copy. We are taking what we think is the best of what we see and distorting it to our own abilities thus coming up with something unique.........we hope.

 

[Big-Un]

As my mother used to say, "what goes around, comes around" and I believe she was so right in that. The dishonest things people do will always come back to them, some in the obvious and satisfactory way with Roger and Weldon, but most will occur out of our sight. I have a huge e-folder of most everyone's work represented here and use it often for inspiration and study. I have just begun collecting casts of other's work and use them for the same purpose. Although it is very disheartening to discover your work being touted as the work of someone else, there is really no way to copyrite a piece of work, what with the photo manipulation programs available, so sometimes we just need to realize that we can only represent ourselves as best we can, with honesty and integrity. God says "vengeance is mine" and we should let Him take care of the ruthless scoundrels. The only person we can control is ourself, and that should be our goal in life; to represent our craft in the proper light to the uninitiated.

 

[FANCYGUN]

Big-Un is correct.
How we conduct ourselves is our best advertising. I also agree what goes around comes around.

But you have to admit..revenge is sweet at times. It can even be called "sporting"
Must be the New Yorker in me.

 

[Brian Hochstrat]

I really feel sorry for this individual, if guilty it shows very low confidence in his own abilities and has no regard for fellow engravers, customers or honesty in general, and if not guilty he is under suspicion of dishonesty, in either case his reputation will suffer. Hopefully, he will learn a lesson and revaluate his practices.

With that said, I have a question on engraving designs and ownership. A while back, I was approached to engrave an LC Smith crown grade, with a factory pattern, the owner of the gun had the engraving designs and all I had to do was cut the design. The job did not interest me in the least, I explained I do my own designs in my style. The customer had his mind set on the factory design, so I turned the job down with out any further thought, until now. Say I had been in a bind and needed the work would it have been pledgerism to cut that old factory design? I think there are some engravers out there that do replica work. So how does that all work? -Brian

 

[gtsport]

Someone else's work

Hi All,

After reading everyone's post, I think there might be another possibility. Sam, did you know either the collector or the engraver prior to being contacted? If not, could the collector be trying to injure the other engraver's reputation? What I am saying is that if you didn't know this collector previously, it seems odd that the first person he sends the pictures to just happens to be the actual engraver of the pieces. It would also lend credence to the other engraver's denial of wrong doing. Just a thought from my addled mind.

Joe Paonessa

 

[jdumars]

I had a very unfortunately situation happen in terms of copying... A saxophone company in Taiwan basically copied a piece I did and started using it on all of their instruments! I talked to the distributor in the US and convinced them to change the pattern, but they only did so on the most cursory level. Here's mine:

And their copy:

 

[Marcus Hunt]

Brian, speaking personally I would have no problem with cutting whatever design the client wanted. In Europe there is a lot of crossover between designs. For example, Purdey rose and scroll has been copied ad infinitum by the Spanish, Italians, French and Belgians and indeed Purdey's '60' design can be seen on many AyA's. No one has a problem with this and it's the individual engraver who adds his/her individual flare to cutting the design. Anyway, there is a lot of leeway within a standard design to make it your own.

Also, as a gun engraver, different clients want/demand different styles and we have to be able to meet their demand. It's no good saying "Well, I only do my particular style of scroll," if you want to appeal to a broad spectrum of potential clients. Sure, you may get a few people who like your style and you may be lucky enough to have them become regular customers and demand nothing but that style but in my experience you'll appeal to far more potential clients if you have several styles under your belt. Each individual engraver will cut differently even if cutting the same style and design of scrollwork. For example, when my father, sister and myself were working alongside each other, if we all cut a Purdey small scroll gun to the same design each would be very different to the other but would still have been classified as the same design.

Where I have a problem with certain repro guns is that it seems that copying the old engraving is of utmost importance. The thing is, a lot of this production work on the old guns was absolute crap. Why would anyone in their right mind want crap put on a new gun??? If the original engraver had been any good would the modern repro be engraved with rubbish? I think not.

Where I think there may be a problem is when 'artistic' work is copied and marketed as one's own when there is no doubt it was originally done by someone else. I don't know, but I think it would be very difficult to copyright scrollwork as it has been around for centuries and every engraver is influenced by something they've seen at sometime or other and because of this it would be difficult to prove the design as absolutely unique. Plus, I'd hate to think we'd ever descend into lawsuits because of our craft.

 

[Haraga.com]

quick solution

Get a 3 way conference call between the collector, alleged copy-cat and Sam. Someone will be held accountable or there will be someone calling the other a liar.

 

[Ray Cover]

Joe may be right, there may be more to this story than anyone is seeing on the surface. Goodness knows I have seen such games played.

In my eyes the real issue here is not whether one engraver is influenced by another or whether he cut a scroll layout he saw somewhere else. The real problem is trying to pass someone else's work off as your own. It is the dishonesty and the deception of it that is troubling.

To me the example Marcus gave does not really bother me too much, especially with patterns and scroll styles that have been pretty much standardized. On the other hand, if a gun dealer came to an engraver and wanted a Parker engraved with an older very collectible pattern and wanted the engraver to leave it unsigned so it could be passed off as an original I would have a big problem with that. I have heard of such things happening.

The real despicable thing to me is the attempt to defraud someone by cheating and lying.

Ray

 

[Tom Curran]

I can see where a particular 'school' or style of engraving is shared by many engravers, but what Sam experienced is not the norm. It's criminal. It's thievery of design, or at the very least, using someone else's hard earned work for your own advertising, for free.

Hi, Marty. I've been too busy with machining lately to be engraving much, but I thought I'd see if you were still awake.

 

[Gargoyle]

I've found photos of my fireplaces on websites selling products made in China, India, and a few other countries. These aren't photos of knock-off copies, but my photos lifted from my site. Generally they photoshop out my copyright info, but I've seen one or two who even left my copyright visible on the photos. They all claim these are pieces which they've carved. It's been going on for years.

And that's besides all the knock-off copies which they sell, finished and delivered, for less than I pay for the raw block of stone. In many cases the price I see these selling for wouldn't even cover trucking, ocean transport, and customs duties. Figure that one out.

 

[Dulltool]

Haraga,
I agree with you wholehartedly plus if this person is a member of the Cafe and or the Guild he/she should be disowned.... one bad apple.

 

[jimzim75]

The only effective protection I've ever seen was taken by two groups.
The first was web page designers that wrote a finger print right into the
web page design. The second was the Photographers who basically did
the same thing.

How this work is, when someone downloads a finger printed item onto his
computer. He also downloads a small one line program, that tells the computer
to contact the original designer or photographer.

Web designer that I knew had women denying that she had stolen the design.
She was successfully sued, and force to remove the site.

The second was a photographer that had published a picture of a
African musician throwing a gored instrument in the air. This was copied
357 times. Once by a huge ad agency. He also won his case.

I'm not sure of what the programs are called but a search for digital finger prints
will probable have good results. It might be something to look into.
Jim

 

[jacques herbst]

if the engraver could pass of a copy of sams work that comes close to the original he is really a sad case.if he/she have the skill to do so what is stopping him from producing his own artwork????.is he so busy scamming that he does not see the talent he possesses?.i to think that there might be a lot more to this than whats on the surface.who knows what they are really up to.no matter what one does to protect your creations there will be others that will spend there time to copy.if only they will spend the same amount of time doing there own thing.i often wonder how some people deal with them selfs and there under handed ways.if they make money doing so,how sour it must be to spend that money .

 

[RoycroftRon]

Aperture (an apple application) I believe embeds author information into the file; as well as the aperture, film speed, and other settings. I would suspect that any tech savvy person could remove this information - but it is invisible to people that are not using aperture or a similar program.

 

[KCSteve]

DigiMarc will embed an invisible watermark in an image. Multiple copies are scattered throughout the image and it's robust enough it's virtually impossible to remove. They also have a service that will scan the web and report to you everywhere it finds your 'signature'. Ok, techinically they just scan the web and record where all the signatures are - the service is reporting to you where they found yours.

I believe the basic watermarking software (plug-in) is free - it's the bulk marker and the tracking that cost money.