Question: Could this micro engraving work?

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

I'm asked to engrave some Titanium glasses with tortoise.
There is not much space for a complicated engraving design. But when looking at Andrew Bigs beautiful designs on his watches, I thought he could give me some advise if this could work.

I know the pictures are big, but otherwise I can't show it properly.

arnaud

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Arnaud

That should look very cool!!!

I don't know about the titanium as I've never cut it........the 316L stainless I cut on watches is miserable to work with, so hopefully the titanium is better.

To give you an idea of size........... The watch bezels have 3.5mm (approx) of room between the borders that can be engraved.

So if it's about that size then yes, you can do it. Anything smaller and you may struggle.........but give it a go on a practice plate.

Keep your cuts a bit lighter or they will be to thick for the size engraving...........and don't try to shade too much. Keep the shading simple otherwise it will not work out that well and look a bit messy to the human eye.

If you remove the background......Avoid small flats as they will invariably mess up the work...........use a 120 graver and cut around the outline of the area. Lean the graver into the background area. Then cut the remaining background out with the 120 using parallel lines slightly overlapping...........then stipple. The stippling will even out the background in such small areas.

Another way to remove background is with a very tiny burr.....about 0.2mm

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Thank you for your reply Andrew.
The Titanium cuts quite easy. I know the main cuts need to be a bit less deep. As I understand it all has to be in proportion, the smaller the engraving the line should be too.
I also use the 0,2 carbide burs to remove the background, on this I think instead of stippling, I also could use the Chris Decamillis bulino tool. Indeed more job but it has to be very clear, or otherwise the engraving will be messed up.

Sure I will try it first on a Ti practice plate, I was thinking to use a 105° instead of a 120°, as the lines may be a bit less wide.
And I will be aware with the shading, I studied yours on the watches, to much and there will be to less white.
I will keep you all informed about my progress on this.

arnaud

 

[leroytwohawks]

I like it and think it should turn out great.

Kevin

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Here is a detail of the design

arnaud

 

[Christian DeCamillis]

Arnaud, When you cut small scrols like this on a watch ,the problem is that if you cut them too light they don't have much contrast and aren't as bold as they appear in a picture. When I began doing watches I had to overcome this. I think this will be the problem with the eye glasses as well.

The trick is to cut it deep with not too wide of cuts. The problem is the deeper you go the wider the cut becomes. The other problem is that with a narrow geometry you will get drag marks on the work if you cut too deep.I use an onglette shape with some special relief cuts so you can cut deep without getting too wide.and no matter how deep you cut it doesn't drag. The problem is it can't be sharpened on any sharpening system or with any fixture. It is done by using diamond wheels and burs under the microscope.

I will try to take some pictures of it and send them too you. Also with these small spaces english scroll cut deep from border to border looks great, and it doesn't take long. A dot of gold here and there can really give it a rich look,or you could set a stone here and there . Chris

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Thank you Chris, looking forward to see the onglette you use for this kind of work.
So in your opinion even a 90° CMax with parallel heel, the way you explained your graver geometry on the regular gravers won't work without drag?

arnaud

 

[Mike Cirelli]

Here is a link of how I sharpen my onglette graver with the GRS power hone.
http://www.grstools.com/resourcelibrary/tutorials/sharpening-traditional-onglette-gravers.html

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Thank you Mike, I have read this already in another tread here posted by you I think.

I will have to experiment with is I suppose, as I only use the onglette for stone setting without a heel, just 65° face.

arnaud

 

[Christian DeCamillis]

Mike, I wasn't implying that you can't sharpen an onglette on a hone, I am saying that this particulair grind can't be done on one.

Arnaud, I doesn't matter what kind of heel you use, once you cut deeper then the length of the heel it will drag, unless there is a negative grind behind the heel. This graver grind eliminates everything behind the heel and also places a relief or negative grind behind it's entire geometry. I hope that makes sense. Chris

 

[Mike Cirelli]

I think I got it. You are doing a relieve grind behind the heel, so it doesn't disturb the walls of the engraving.? I thought you were referring to the face and heel.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

I'm sure I will have to try some different gravers on this.
I think I understand about the graver Cris is pointing on, and why it could help preventing drag.
I would like to see one to be sure how to make one.
On the other hand, I was thinking about the difference between a onglette and say a 30° square. Yes the onglette has some roundness. But what is the advantage of that?

I have some ideas, but it seems Andrew is using just a regular 120°

So I would like to have more information about the how's and why's

arnaud

 

[Christian DeCamillis]

Mike, There is relief behind the face and the heel.
Arnaud, The onglette is stronger than a straight 30 degree. Chris

 

[KCSteve]

Chris

How about the Lindsay point? That's got some relief behind the point built in to it.

Just curious if you've tried one ground really small for this sort of fine work.

 

[Christian DeCamillis]

Steve, I guess when it comes to the lindsay geometry I don't understand what the 2 degree or so relief as it is called does. I always start with some degree of relief anyway, in fact I often make a bulino geometry but with about a 7 degree lift and then put a heel on at 17 to 20 degrees. For me this does two things it makes the point nice and narrow and gives me plenty of clearance. I don't want you to think that Steve's geometry is bad, I just never understood why it was different then what a lot of people already do. I can only go by what's posted on his site. As far a parallel heel goes ,I personaly dont use it , again many do and thats great. The fact remains that it doesn't matter what kind of geometry a person uses wheter its uniform or not, it doesn't matter how much relief you put behind the graver 2 or 10. If you make a cut deeper than the length of your heel that has a tight curvre to it , it will drag. The only way to have this not happen, is to put a negative relief behind the heel. This too can drag depending on how much negative relief you use and the depth of the cut. That's whay I also put a negative relief behind the face as well when I am doing certain work. I use cylinder diamond burs to do this. Give it a try it works great. The downside as with everything is that when the point breaks or gets dull , you have to regrind almost everything Chris

 

[monk]

i've engraved a bit of titanium, the nature of which didn't require any blackening. i didn't know the particular alloy either. what do you gents use to darken the titanium ? btw--arnaud, that design just rules ! it's very nice. hope you can get it to work for you.

 

[KCSteve]

Chris

Not to derail Arnaud's thread too far, but I've found that the Lindsay point does have less drag - I always use one when doing my mark. I tend to make it rather small (especially when doing things like signing the edge of a nickel) and I was always getting drag with a regular graver but not with the Lindsay point. I'll have my Box O' Happiness with me at the Engrave-In if you want to give one a try. I'm betting your methods provide a great deal more relief but the Lindsay point does provide some, perhaps enough for many purposes.

 

[rod]

Chris,

Please, if you are willing, post your onglette with relief for us all?

I am really interested in the tool geometry you mention here?

Deep tight turns with no drag from some one with your experience is worth studying!

best

Rod

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Arnaud

Yes indeed......I do use just a normal 120 degree graver with a very small heel. And the graver is shaped in proportion to the job. Small work means small face sides etc. My shading I do with a 110 degree graver.

But you have to keep in mind that the main reason I do this is because the 120 is a lot stronger an means less sharpening with the 316L stainless. It also cuts cleaner with less side burs than a 90 degree graver........but again, this is because of the nature of the metal being cut.

So a lot of this is just personal preference and what the canvas sometimes dictates. There's no hard and fast rules to any of this.......just what works best for you on the job.

However in saying that.............I'm all ears if there is something that will work better, last longer or give a cleaner cut etc etc. So I would also be very keen to see Chris' onglette geometry and give it a go.........but I'm having great difficulty envisioning the description.

So I second Rods request......please post a picture or diagram of the tool

Cheers
Andrew

One thing I forgot to mention...........I cut all the borders on the watches with a 90 degree graver. (in fact I cut all borders on everything this way)

Why????

Because I personally find it is more forgiving than wider gravers and more controlable and gives a finer border line.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

I think I understand the geometry Chis uses on the onglette, and how to make it using a diamond cylinder in a rotary hand piece and why one has to start all over when the point breaks.
On the other hand, I can't see anything wrong with Andrew's way on his watches, and the cuts look straight to me.
All of my gravers have a very small face because I use the geometry Chris explained me. Of course one need smaller tools in proportion to the work one does.

I also understand the strength of a 120° compared to a 90°
Anyway, I will have to give all the ideas a try to find out what works best.

I have noticed that most engraving I do is quite detailed and small, probably because I'm a goldsmith working on small details.

I hope Chris shows a design or photo of his onglette geometry to understand better.

all the best and thank you all for your support, arnaud