Question: Could this micro engraving work?

[Andrew Biggs]

And another couple of things that can be of help cutting so small.

Centre your work in the microscope better that you normally would.......spend a little time getting it as accurate as you can. This will help with such small scrolls.

Raise the heel if your graver to about 17.5 degrees which helps with clearance .........and when you are cutting toward the head of the scroll which is tiny..........raise the handle of your graver up a bit to make that final tight circle.

If none of that works......then swear loudly......it doesn't improve the work but it sure helps the stress levels

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Yes Andrew, I also know about centering the scrolls using a scope, that is why I recently purchased the GRS positioning vise, it saves some time centering what one normally would not do when using shims.

I suppose you also had to find out by giving it different try, but sure a good thing in the Café, that we can share what we experienced. Sure that helps a lot.

arnaud

 

[Christian DeCamillis]

I will take some pictures today and post them.

Andrew, I don't think this graver will help with the watches you do because this stainless is too tough. It will work with soft metals titanium, assuming your not cutting other than a normal grade titanium. Some of the harder grades are too tough. It is ok for mild steel as well . You can use it on any geometry. I will show example later today. Chris

 

[Kevin P.]

Chris, I'm another would would like to see a drawing of your onglette point.

Also I'm using a bulino point sharpened to your 'specs' on your DVD; but the 7° lift followed by a heel @ 17-20° leaves me confused as to what these terms mean: lift & heel. I know what the heel is but what's the 'lift'? I thought lift was the space between the graver and the material being engraved.
Kevin

 

[Kevin P.]

Steve, what lindsay point in particular are you referring to?
I think your comment is to the point after all it's micro engraving which started this thread.
I have an artisan but the lindsay points are not as familiar to me.
Kevin

 

[Kevin P.]

Andrew, apropos of all this, your comments are helpful in a broader application. I'm cutting some celtic interlocking stuff on a small scale for ERs and I'm discovering different techniques are necessary. So I'm picking up pointers that I hadn't known.

Once more Arnaud is bringing more of us along on his trip.
Kevin

 

[CJ Tate]

Glasses should be stunning. I will be following your progress and technical posts with interest.

 

[KCSteve]

Kevin P.

The Lindsay Universal Point - his standard one. The extra grinds on it are supposed to let you cut tight curves without getting drag. In my experience, they do just that.

Also, to the best of my rather limited understanding 'lift' is some 'manufactured' clearance added to the underside of the graver. In some cases they do it by bending the graver, but more usually (again, I think) by grinding. On at least some of the Italian style bulino gravers they just grind in the lift on the underside of the graver and don't bother with any heel.

 

[Marcus Hunt]

Just getting back to your design rather than geometries, Arnaud, beware of hooking your scrolls. The design looks very nice when enlarged but when you reduce the size the heads of the scrolls will look like fish hooks. Remember to spiral the scrolls and keep the head in relative proportion to your leaves and tendrils.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Marcus, thank you for your support, I understand what you mean. Probably I wont shade the head scrolls. In fact as Andrew already pointed on, engravings of that size need less shading lines.
I will have to practice first to see how it comes out.

arnaud

 

[Kevin P.]

Thanks Steve, I'll look more closely at his universal point.

The question of lift & heels came up previously without resolution.
kevin

 

[KCSteve]

I've downloaded the instructions on how to grind his point.



I have his template based sharpening system - that thing rocks :banana:
You're limited to doing the gravers you have templates for, and there are limits on how much you can adjust things like the face and heel angles but that's why it's great to also have a Dual Angle sharpener.

Note: the hand stones are great for sharpening a graver but you'll want something powered for the initial shaping.

 

[Ron Smith]

Your Design is very good Arnaud,

Cutting very small stuff requires different approaches. Wider tools make turns easier. Narrow tools don't, but the relief behind the point will cure some of the problems as Chris says. The smaller the work, the shorter the heel, the shallower the cut. Actually depth is not created so much by depth. It is created by contrast, but crisp edges are essential for small work. You can take out background by the fan cutting from the three corners that is the characteristic result of scroll design, and then stipple for more contrast, if you know what I mean. Look at the spaces between the leaves in scroll design and you will see.

As for geometry, you can do any of this with about any point as long as you make the heel appropriate to the depth of the cut. If you cut deeper than length of the heel, it will drag. If you cut shallower than the heel it will drag. If the heel is too long, it will drag. A narrow point will drag because of the sheer angles of the sides of the tool, so you have to put wider facets on the heel to eliminate this, which causes relief behind the heel for it is narrower back there than the face of the tool. This will give you some relief, but you still have to utilize the deth of cut principal. If you cut to deep for the point you have created, it will drag. This is presicion stuff and techniques and control are critical.

The universal point is just that. It is designed to cut almost any spiral of any size, however in small areas, it will put a wide bevel on the cut. You cannot have this in very small areas for lack of space and contrast potential.

The Italian bulino tool is not good for cutting spirals. It is designed for short straight lines or slight curves for textures. It will drag if you use it for outlines of spirals and curved cuts, or that is my experience. It will do slight arcs, but that is about it. The drag marks might be so small you can only see them under a scope, but they will be there, not visible to the naked eye, but the cuts will have to be very shallow. You have to shrink everything down proportionately.

And that is my two cents on the subject...........

That is going to look good Arnaud, Bravo!! A tedious job to say the least.

Ron S

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

practice plate

Thank you Ron for your help, much appreciated.

I had to give it a try on a Ti practice plate, the way I think it could work
All of you have sure good ideas how to solve things like how to make a graver for this kind of micro work
Sure I will try them all if I can't succeed this engraving successfully.

As I said, I have to find out, the same way you did.
So I started using my regular graver, C-max 105°, parallel heel etc.

The inner border from top to bottom is less than 4 mm.
I had in mind everything has to be smaller. I also was warned for drag and to less black in the cuts.

I don't know if I miss something till now, if it is please point on that.
Anyway, I don't think there is drag in the cuts, and sure the cuts look black, no difference from other engravings I did.

I did this quite quickly within 90 minutes. So sure I can re-cut here and there before removing the background.

In my opinion the cuts and turns don't look bad.
What you think? remember the inner border is less than 4mm but I have to show it big. After this I will remove the background and add fragile shading.

arnaud

 

[John B.]

Starting from the back the small upper scroll just past the middle is going to have a big are of black background.
Maybe you could add a small additional leaf to this area.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Thank you John, I see it. How about the cutting on this size?

arnaud

 

[John B.]

Looks clean as a hounds tooth to me, Arnaud.
You did a great job.

 

[leroytwohawks]

I think you did a great job working out a design that will add some nice elegance to the frames!!!

Kevin

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Arnaud.

Looking good. Don't get too hung up on heel drag. Keep your heels in proportion to the cut. Small work, small heels.....and raise them slightly.

A bit if a wipe with grit paper gets rid of drag marks real easy. Use the old jewellers trick of a wooden spatula, crease the grit paper on either side so it wraps around the spatula tightly...........this prevents the cuts from being rounded out.

Don't forget..................with the naked eye you won't see any of the slight imperfections like you will on a blown up photo. That doesn't mean to say that you shouldn't be careful and try to avid them...................it just means that you shouldn't get too hung up on them either

And don't over shade. If you do then it will look more like black smudges than shading. Check the work regularly with your naked eye!!!

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Thank you Andrew, as a goldsmith I use those "spatula" all the time, we even buy them ready in different grid.
Another trick perhaps you don't know about is a spatula with a leather strip on it, you can buy these at the watch repair shop and they are used for polishing clock-hands etc.
I use them also, put some diamond spray on it to polish by hand to avoid rounding sharp borders etc.

The reason of course why I show this one that blown up, is to ask about the cutting, as it was also mentioned in this tread to make a particular graver for these kind of jobs.
I will show next step when I freshed up the cuts and removed the background. Just to find out if it will look on this size with the naked eye.

And sure, if it looks great under the microscope it also will with the naked eye, but as you said, I have to look a lot without magnification to find the balance black white.

arnaud