Help, please: Everything you need to get going?

[Barbara]

Hello there! I`ll firstly introduce myself. My name is Barbara Macleod and I`m a jewellery designer and maker from scotland. I`m new to this site and have been really enjoying the hints, tips and general banter in the forums. People seem too be very giving with their knowledge - which is great.

Basically I`ve been thinking about buying a Gravermax/Gravermach set up(on a tight budget) for quite some time now, but would like to run a few things past some of you experts out there!! - Really about the ideal set up for a beginner and beyond.

You can see my current designs at www.barbara-macleod.com. My work is inspired by decorative patterns, prints and detailings from various eras. I currently achieve pattern on silver by the process of photo etching, but this is quite limiting as this process can only be applied to a flat surface. I want to bring more form and a more sculptural quality to my work and hoping a gravermax/mach will be a route to this over time.

So from what I`ve been reading I get the impression that:

. The gravermax or gravermach (aT) are good choices of systems?
. So on top of that I need a handpiece and some of the tool attachments? .Would it be an idea to get a sharpenning tool?
.Does this have to be the "Power Hone" sharperner or could you just use a regular diamond grinder?
.Lastly do you think it`s possible to find this sort of set up second hand for around $1600 + shipping?

Your help and advice would be greatly appreciated. I look forward to some responses. Appologies for multiple questions.

 

[Ron Smith]

Hi Barbara,

Welcome to the forum. If you are going to get power tools, I would go for the latest and greatest tools. The gravermach is the latest of the two you suggested. Engraving requires consistant tool geometry, and so a power hone and sharpening system would be able to do that. Sharpening is a common, repeated task. There are some sharpening templates that work for the basic point of the graver and they will work fine, but a graver blank holder with the calibrated settings would be more versital.

The hand piece? that would depend on whether you are doing heavy work or fine. I use the magnum handpiece from GRS if you have their catalogue. I can do abut anything with it, heavy or fine. There are other ones that can do finer work, such as the monarch and they have other versions i.e. palm control etc. contact GRS and they will help you.

You will need several square graver blanks and quick change collets and you can add on to them later. that ought to set you up for practice and that is what it really takes to get control of these tools.

Good luck!!

Ron S

 

[ED DELORGE]

Hello Barbara, Ron is exactly right. My choice of hand pieces is the 901. So, now that you have got advise from the worlds two finest engravers, how can you go wrong?

Lots of laughs

Good Luck

Ed

 

[monk]

welcome. never used the max or mach. have used a gravermeister for eons. i can only say it was an investment that has repaid me many times over the years. i would say the grs brand accross the board is the same. my advice for spending your next dollar, is to purchase a sharpening system that is based on the use of diamond power hone, and a holding fixture for your gravers. this allows consistent tool geometry-- a must for good, quality engraving. the grs web site has these products new. if you are really on a budget, look at the top of this page-- there's a section for items listed for sale.
good luck.

 

[Gemsetterchris]

Hi Barbara,
If your mainly using silver i suggest trying by hand first.
A well sharpened graver cuts through it like butter and you can easily get the same result without the expense.

 

[Sam]

Hi Barbara,
If your mainly using silver i suggest trying by hand first.
A well sharpened graver cuts through it like butter and you can easily get the same result without the expense.

I will have to respectfully disagree with Chris on this one. I seriously doubt you can easily get the same result unless you are a professional hand engraver who has experience with hand-pushing gravers. Handpieces and sharpening systems get you into the game quickly by reducing the learning curve by 90% or more. Not only that, but they have enhanced control which allows you to do things that are next to impossible with hand pushed tools.

My preference is the GRS 901 handpiece which I use for general purpose work. For the fine detail I switch to the Monarch handpiece.

 

[Kevin Scott]

Barbara, To add to the confusion I agree with both Sam and Chris. In fact I was going to post a reply similar to Chris's. One advantage of "pushing" is you find out how much you like engraving without as much of expense. Also since your "canvas's" you are working on are small, that also lends itself to push engraving since you are not removing great amounts of metal. But what Sam says about the learning curve, it seems everybody totally agrees. Still have to buy good sharpening equipment either way. Maybe talk to people that do work similar to what you do or want to do, and go from there. Good luck, Kevin Scott

 

[Gemsetterchris]

Barbara already hinted at the tight budget, i think we should be encouraging abit of common sense here.
Air tools are better (i just bought a palmcontrol), however the cost of a few hand tools and a grinder is a hell of alot more sensible to start with.
The level of dificulty cutting small designs in silver do not justify the expense of all the latest equipment..just yet.
By all means get one, but don`t break the bank over it as you can do fantastic work by hand for sure.

Plus you need a compressor or other air supply to your list?

 

[Sam]

The debate continues...

You also must consider what your time is worth and how fast you wish to get in the game. There's absolutely nothing wrong with hand tools and a grinder. I started that way myself. Handpiece engraving is really expensive compared to buying a couple of gravers and a whetstone, but my experience as an engraver and teacher have shown me that students learn many times faster using pneumatic tools over hand gravers, and have more control cutting complex designs. Only you will know what's best for your particular situation. Weigh the options and decide accordingly.

Yes, you will also need a compressor. Oh, and then there's the microscope, and that cool turntable or positioning vise, and....

~Sam

 

[Gemsetterchris]

The debate continues...
Oh, and then there's the microscope, and that cool turntable or positioning vise, and....
~Sam

.....Your starting on my list now Sam :big grin:

At least i just ordered a Tom White power hone, shaping a bulino point from a m42 or carbalt square blank by hand is no fun.

Good luck Barbara on the never ending tool wishlist.....

 

[Mario Sarto]

Hello Barbara - Welcome to the forum!
My name is Mario, i am a goldsmith and i joined this forum only a few days ago (it seems to me this way because every day i learn something new). I am an absolute novice to the art of engraving you'll find here.
I descried this forum accidentally and like you i was astonished about these experts who share their knowledge so bountiful.

I was looking for an engraving system only to enhance my stone setting when i made two mistakes - i watched the fantastic works here and i bought a well known book from Mr. Smith. From that time i was dreaming of this stuff. It is fatal - every free minute i try to get more chips out of a sheet of metal or something else engraveable. So take care or you will be hooked in a minute

As you are in the jewelry business like me and some others here the Graver Mach is a very good choice. If possible get the new AT. These tools are build very well and they do the job. There are other systems and i think they are very good, too. I never used them so i can't tell you about.
I use two handpieces - a 901 and the monarch - both with the Palm Touch Element. This combination works great for me and i can do the whole work in our studio. If you decide to work under a microscope, a turntable is very useful, too. Sam said this above and it is a good advice. And one thing more - the vise - i started with a smaller one and it was ok, but now i have a bigger one and my work became better. It is difficult to explain but more weight gives me more control.

Hope you find something helpful in my drivel.
Mario

 

[Roger Bleile]

Like many of the seasoned engravers here, I started out on manual tools but eventually moved to power tools years ago. I think that everyone can agree that almost anything that can be done with power tools can be done with manual. As others mentioned it is the learning curve and time that is seriously different .

One thing not mentioned is why, in past times, we were called "hand engravers." It was not just because we engraved with hand tools but because at one time or another we engraved our left hand! I can vividly remember sticking a graver up to the handle into my left hand, between the thumb and forefinger as I learned to perfect my technique with the burin.

At the recent FEGA show in Reno, John B. introduced me to an elderly hand engraver who began in the 1930's and used push gravers his entire career. His left hand looked like it had been hit with a charge of birdshot from all of the times he had stuck himself. This was not from lack of skill but the nature of the beast when trying to work just a little too fast.

I would like to ask this: is there anyone out there who is proficient with a hand pushed graver who has never stuck him/herself in the off hand? I'm really curious about that and not trying to be sarcastic.

CRB

 

[CJ Tate]

Welcome to the forum Barbara. You have an exciting line of jewelry and it will be very interesting to see how you add engraving to your designs. - Candy

 

[Ron Smith]

Roger, I never showed you my scars? HaHa........

I didn't start using power tools until a few years ago. I still love those old tools, scars and all. they are sort of a badge of honor as they say.

I can still see some of them, but driving them into the bone is a carreer ender for some upstarts. Boy does that hurt. That poor old nuckle on my left hand took many jabs. Some of the bad ones are still visible, but many now are hidden by the wrinkles now.

Ron S

 

[Sam]

Back in my professional music days when I was an amateur engraver, I jammed a push graver nearly to the bone in my left hand. When I went to work that night I could barely play with my aching, swollen and crippled hand, and it was a serious detriment to the music. My band members asked me if I wanted to be an engraver or musician. They were not happy, and I didn't blame them. It's an awful injury. I poked myself many times over the years but that one was the worst.

 

[Marcus Hunt]

I have to agree with Sam on this one Barbara. If you are going the self-taught route (which many engravers nowadays have to) then air assistance is the way to go. The thing that takes most time when learning to hand push is training muscle memory. What actually happens when learning the hand push method is that you have to push through the metal whilst applying the brakes so to speak. Come off the break at the wrong time and you'll skid out of the cut. Air assisted tools do away with this part of the learning curve so you can concentrate on what you're cutting rather than developing technique.

Roger, I've been there and got the t-shirt!!! In fact the dumbest stabbing I did was only a couple of years ago when I was sitting in on Chris Decamillis' bulino class. I was using the really pointy bulino tool he'd taught the class to make and found that I preferred hand pushing so I was using the GRS quick change rubber handle. Well, somehow i knocked it off the bench and instead of getting my feet out of the way quickly, I made the basic apprentices error of trying to catch it and brought my legs together. Result = 1 graver sticking over an inch into my thigh! Todd Daniels (who was sitting next to me) took one look at it suspended in my leg and just said "Man, that's gonna hurt!" Of course, I had to pull it out and bleed out any dirt whilst trying not to ruin a pair of trousers, which wasn't easy. And Todd was right, it hurt like hell for days! Goes to show, no matter how long you've been in the game, you can still make fundamental errors of judgement.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Well I use the Graversmith, a 901 hand piece I upgraded the Piston V3.
There are only two buttons on the Graversmith and after using it for 14 moths, I know how to use them for particular purposes.
I use this for stone setting, engravings and shading, and sculpting
At first I agreed that I also needed the Monarch hand piece for shading, right now I'm convinced I can do it al with the 901.
Of course, I never tried something else, but I don't have the feeling I am missing something or my engraving would be better using other tools.

And I agree in a way one always think the most expensive master tools work the best, but in my opinion it is not always like that.

arnaud

 

[Barbara]

Thanks for all your help

Hello Everyone and thanks for all your comments. It`s been great to get all your thoughts and get the bigger picture on things. Although it prob would be more sensible and less costly to learn the manual way, I am really keen to learn how to engrave and develop my current line of jewellery sooner rather than later. Maybe this will mean hanging off for a few more months until I have enough funds to get everything i need for the air set up.

 

[celticjohn]

Barbara, I seem to be in the same boat myself. Got the block, pushgravers and handles, sharpening stone etc. It's an absolute nightmare trying to sharpen by hand. There's too many variables in "what am I doing wrong" to progress in any kind of forward manner, not to mention the frustration. I got Sam's sharpening DVD and have realised that the sharpening hone and dual angle fixture is next on my shopping list. It may be of interest to you but there is a short course in "hand engraving in metal" at West Dean College in Chichester, UK from the 30th April - 2nd May. Page 39 top left hand corner.

http://www.westdean.org.uk/resources/downloads/short_course_brochure_pdfs/Nov2009_May2010.pdf

The cost for the 3 days is only £178 sterling which I think is good value, considering a one day course in London is being quoted in excess of 300+

 

[PS_Bond]

...there is a short course in "hand engraving in metal" at West Dean College in Chichester, UK from the 30th April - 2nd May.

I did the 5 day course with Wayne Parrott a few years ago - and it was one of the best courses I've attended on any subject. I'm not convinced my current efforts do his tuition justice though... Mind you, that was when I stuck a graver through my finger (utter stupidity - too tired, put too much force in, slipped)

One thing I've said before about air-assisted is that it has been very strange how much switching over to powered has improved my hand pushed as well - presumably building the muscle memory on positioning without it getting confused by forcing the tool.