kfengraver
Member
looking at getting a colt 45 saa to engrave. it has a case harden finish. dose that make it harder to engrave? or can it be striped off?
Question: gun engraving question
- Thread starter kfengraver
- Start date
Ed Westerly
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
The case hardening on a Colt is truely hard (read virtually impossible to cut!). To cut it, you need to have it annealed. Annealing is heating the part cherry red and letting it cool slowly. If not done correctly, the part warps. After engraving, you would need to have it re-case hardened. Getting the colors right is an art, and again, if not done right the part warps. There are people who will anneal and re-case harden for you, but the process is not cheap. Good luck.
Take the advice from Bruce and get a professional to anneal it for you and then re-case harden,a warp part will show up when putting the gun back together. J.J.
Dulltool
Elite Cafe Member
As stated you will need to anneal the frame on Colt SAA's for engraving.... but it does not need to be re-harden.
scott99
Elite Cafe Member
HI this is a question for Dulltool.
Why would you think that a gun frame does not need to be properly heat treated? Is it that you think that the firearm will not be fired again? The pressures in even a hand gun can blow your face off if the frame fails.
Why do you think the company that made the gun heat treats in the first place?
scott99
Why would you think that a gun frame does not need to be properly heat treated? Is it that you think that the firearm will not be fired again? The pressures in even a hand gun can blow your face off if the frame fails.
Why do you think the company that made the gun heat treats in the first place?
scott99
Weldon47
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Because the question specifically concerns the Colt Single Action Army & Colt sells the SAA with non-case hardened frames. Their nickel plated guns, blue frame guns & those in the white (or, green) do not have hardened frames.
Pretty sure they (Colt) know what they're doing!
Weldon
Yes... I've cut hundreds of them (literally)!
Pretty sure they (Colt) know what they're doing!
Weldon
Yes... I've cut hundreds of them (literally)!
BrianPowley
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
I've only engraved a few dozen SAA's so I'm not quite as experienced as Weldon is.
I've never worked on any SAA that was heat-treated for hardeness' sake.
Color case hardening only permeates the very surface of the steel and was probably done because of the wear properties. The steel under the case coloring is softer. The colors are most likely just a desirable benefit of the process.
I'm sure there are others out there, but I'm totally sold on Doug Turnbull for the annealing AND color case hardening.
The frames and loading gates come back dead-soft, clear of fire scale and (the best part): FAST!
I've never had to wait more than 10 days for a turnaround. (Maybe I'm lucky)
http://www.turnbullmfg.com/
I've never worked on any SAA that was heat-treated for hardeness' sake.
Color case hardening only permeates the very surface of the steel and was probably done because of the wear properties. The steel under the case coloring is softer. The colors are most likely just a desirable benefit of the process.
I'm sure there are others out there, but I'm totally sold on Doug Turnbull for the annealing AND color case hardening.
The frames and loading gates come back dead-soft, clear of fire scale and (the best part): FAST!
I've never had to wait more than 10 days for a turnaround. (Maybe I'm lucky)
http://www.turnbullmfg.com/
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scott99
Elite Cafe Member
Hi, I am glad you have cut these guns with success.
All guns from Colt have heat treated frames, they still should be way softer than a graver. I would like to point out 2 things 1. Color case hardening is a heat treatment. The metal is run up to hardening temps (red hot) and quenched in a bath with bubbles coming up from the bottom of the quench. The bubbles are what gives you the nice colors. 2. When a frame is annealed the metal is in a state of molecular flux and must be at least normalized to realine the structure.
Case hardening is very thin and very hard and only holds up because of the softer heat treated metal that supports it.
I have no information on "green" guns. Do you send them back for blueing if you do the probably normalize the metal at that time.
I have never cut a gun, I am too new to attempt such a project and hate to disagree with a talent as large as yours. But on the other hand I have been building long range sil pistols for 30 years from scratch and have the ovens and Rockwell tester to make sure they are correct and safe.
If you do not belive me this information is cleverly conceled in books on meatalurgy. I will say no more on this subject, but if you think you can anneal a gun and send it out as safe you should look at the problem again. This would is a very unsafe thing to do. It can cause gas cutting, cracks and total failures.
Respectfully scott99
All guns from Colt have heat treated frames, they still should be way softer than a graver. I would like to point out 2 things 1. Color case hardening is a heat treatment. The metal is run up to hardening temps (red hot) and quenched in a bath with bubbles coming up from the bottom of the quench. The bubbles are what gives you the nice colors. 2. When a frame is annealed the metal is in a state of molecular flux and must be at least normalized to realine the structure.
Case hardening is very thin and very hard and only holds up because of the softer heat treated metal that supports it.
I have no information on "green" guns. Do you send them back for blueing if you do the probably normalize the metal at that time.
I have never cut a gun, I am too new to attempt such a project and hate to disagree with a talent as large as yours. But on the other hand I have been building long range sil pistols for 30 years from scratch and have the ovens and Rockwell tester to make sure they are correct and safe.
If you do not belive me this information is cleverly conceled in books on meatalurgy. I will say no more on this subject, but if you think you can anneal a gun and send it out as safe you should look at the problem again. This would is a very unsafe thing to do. It can cause gas cutting, cracks and total failures.
Respectfully scott99
BrianPowley
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
I suppose I can stand corrected on the heat-treatment. Technically, you are correct. (so therefore, annealing is also a heat treating process, right? LOL!). I bet almost all makers do some sort of heat treating---Stabilizing or naturalizing (stress relief) to remedy any work hardening imparted by machining,etc.,etc.
We (engravers) tend to think that anything "heat-treated" (Hardened & tempered) is hammer head hard. That's probably where we seem to wander off the reservation.
Seriously, you've added some good thought on the discussion.
I know I appreciated your input. Good work!
We (engravers) tend to think that anything "heat-treated" (Hardened & tempered) is hammer head hard. That's probably where we seem to wander off the reservation.
Seriously, you've added some good thought on the discussion.
I know I appreciated your input. Good work!
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Dulltool
Elite Cafe Member
All the pressure is in the cylinder chambers and the barrel (both very easy to engrave). The frame is just going along for the ride (think brass frames on a lot of guns). The Colt case hardening on SAA's are skin deep and is for wear protection..... What Weldon said is 100% correct.
BrianPowley
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Before the "fur begins to fly", I understand what Scott99 is saying. He's not wrong---neither is Weldon.
Scott99 admits to never cutting a gun, but he's looking at it from a gunmakers perspective.
I think we understand "Heat-treating" to mean something extremely hard when it really can just be a little harder than normal---but much softer than a graver. Some would call it symantics. Some would call it "Splitting hairs".
We call a certain style of engraving as "Bulino".
We all know bulino isn't a style---it's the name of the actual tool but we understand what we're talking about.
I believe Scott99 was just being informative, not provocative.
Scott99 admits to never cutting a gun, but he's looking at it from a gunmakers perspective.
I think we understand "Heat-treating" to mean something extremely hard when it really can just be a little harder than normal---but much softer than a graver. Some would call it symantics. Some would call it "Splitting hairs".
We call a certain style of engraving as "Bulino".
We all know bulino isn't a style---it's the name of the actual tool but we understand what we're talking about.
I believe Scott99 was just being informative, not provocative.
At the point of ignition, before the bullet starts to move, the cartridge is forced back against the breech face. That's why headspacing is so important. The ability to withstand this pressure in a .38 special or .45 LC is much less than that required for .357 or .44 magnum or certain hand loads. Perhaps the frames are all tempered to high end specs regardless of caliber.
Dulltool
Elite Cafe Member
To get back to the original question...... Once a Colt SAA is annealed you don't need to re-case harden unless you like the look. 
BrianPowley
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Yep...That's why we never have to anneal Colt cylinders.
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