How do you handle design work ups for customers?

[Brian Hochstrat]

As the title stated, what is your process for doing design workups for customers? What type of art work do you send them? Line art, fully rendered, picture of the design doodled on the steel, perhaps nothing. Also do you charge separately for this service? How much time do you typically spend on drawing designs? What are the pros and cons of your process? It would be interesting to see the varying ways to address this part of engraving. If you have sample drawings please post them up, I'm sure I am not the only one that would be interested in seeing them.

 

[Birddog97]

Here is the process I use on Buckles and other items, excluding firearms. I don't have my FFL yet (49 more days till the interview).

Usually I will draw up the design on paper. This is just a rough sketch with basic lines and occaionally some simple shading to show contrast or accent detail. Then I scan the drawing into the computer as a .pdf. I'll email the proof to the client for final approval. Most of the time I get it right the first time, but occasionally the client will want small changes. This happens more with Cattle Brands (as I'm sure you are aware). We go back and forth until they sign off on the final design. If the client is someone I don't know personally, I'll ask for a deposit (usually $50 -$100) before I begin any work, design or otherwise. This process seems to work pretty good. Most of my designs for buckles and spurs are kind of standardized with regards to size an shape. The client will see samples at a trade show, on the internet, or work from a previous client and say "I want one like that, but with my Brand or Initials". Makes it pretty easy and I don't have a great deal of time invested in the project initially.

 

[sam]

I try to avoid it if possible. It's been my experience that customers don't want to pay for preliminary drawings and some get put-off at being told they'll be charged for them. You can get caught in an endless loop of drawings and revisions if you're not careful. At the same time it's not unreasonable for a customer to want to know what the job will look like. What I do is point them to my site and ask them to show me their likes and dislikes and then help guide them to what they want, asking them to trust my design skills based on photos of my work. I ask them for lots of specifics and for as much detail as possible. Knowing what they DON'T want is really helpful. If someone insists that I do an exact drawing of the finished work, then I would have to charge accordingly. I tell them that that money is better spent on the actual engraving. I would also retain actual drawings and send them a scan. Those drawings might not be much now, but one day they'll be extremely valuable to your kids.

 

[fegarex]

Brian,
I think with your talent and reputation all that would really be needed is a "concept drawing". In other words a rough sketch to make sure both of you are on the same page. Like Sam I would refer them to some of the photos of your work. At this point if they can't trust your ability to do a fantastic job of designing and engraving you don't need them as a customer. You still need to make sure all the details are down but a detailed drawing shouldn't be needed.
Rex

 

[Christopher Malouf]

Second what Rex said. Anyone familiar with the quality of work as well as engraving know a chisel is sharper than pencil and a conceptual drawing is more than enough. You're a trusting soul for doing any more than necessary without the jingle in your pocket in advance.

It's also a very thin line between promoting and selling your work and providing food for bottom feeders. I've heard of stories of conceptual drawings by one engraver being shopped around to other engravers for a better price. I've seen my designs from completed work copied and executed with a rotary tool by some hack and posted on motorcycle forums .... I've even had someone grab a photo from my site, have another engraver engrave it and then that engraver asked me to critique it!!!! LOL!!

It all seems rosy and nicey nice hanging out on the forum with friends and acquaintances ..... but there's also the lurkers who take without asking and there's always an engraver willing to to cut it on the QT. I would NEVER put any kind of a sketch of an idea on a public forum either. Odds are, someone will be knocking off your work, a part of it .... or, at the very least, know what you are doing and think the theme or the canvas is the hot subject among collectors now.

I was very surprised when you posted the gladiator artwork. Guaranteed there are a hundred copies of it now. No offense .... but the less other engravers know about what you are up to the better. If I post in-progress photos now, they're at least a month or more old and finished work is even older.

 

[SamW]

I make an outline and sketch in major scroll layouts (outlines only) plus simple outline drawings of animals and add a photo or two of similar work. I would normally only spend a couple of hours on this and it is added to the time for engraving (which I seem to always misunderestimate).

 

[Ray Cover]

Hey Brian,

Here is what I do. I use a per square inch pricing structure. The way I arrived at that is I sat down with a 1" square of 416 and timed how long it took me to cut it from start to finish for each type of scroll I cut. When I say start to finish drawing/designing the scroll for that 1" was part of the process so the drawing/design time is automatically built into my pricing structure.

I have to plan my work. I am not one of the people who can just start cutting and end up with what I want on the steel. I have to think a project through and plan it out on paper first. Since I have to do this anyway as part of my planning process for the job I usually pass that plan onto the customer for approval before I start cutting. That being said, I don't do the drawing until I have a commitment from the customer to do the job. Here is a pic of my current project.

 

[mitch]

I almost always do at least a basic sketch to show style & coverage. I don't ever charge for it separately- it's just one of those overhead sort of things that gets rolled into the final bill one way or another. Since I rarely have all that much time in the drawing it's not a big percentage of the overall project anyway.

Apparently I'm an exception- I've never once done a drawing for a potential client and not end up doing the actual engraving. The drawing helps sell my work. That being the case, it goes without saying I've never had anyone shop my design to another engraver (unless they had it done again by somebody else besides me).

On a larger point, that sort of thing doesn't tend to happen to the better engravers. If someone can copy what I do reasonably well, they're more than capable of doing their own work with no need to plagiarize me or anyone else.

 

[Brian Hochstrat]

Hi guys, thanks for the input, it is helpful. My process has evolved into a time consuming endeavor, that won't even look like the actual engraving, but eats up a ton of time. I have needed to streamline the system and with this input will do so.

Chris, I see what you are saying, but really I don't care if some one knocks off my design, if they want it they will get it one way or another, Either way, it won't have my name on it and the name means more than the work itself. So the joke is really on them, they can do some knock off and it will be worth nothing, if they put it on a good knife, they just devalued the knife. I don't really see it being an issue. Besides if there was anybody out there that could copy my work, but do it cheaper. I hope I can find them, so I can offer them a job.

 

[Lee]

Brian, it's a good question. I've experienced a bit of what everyone has said. What I try to do is charge 10% of the projected budget and that will hold a future slot and gives me something for some drawings. I have a couple of clients that do not care to have input in the design. They want my interpretation. The other extreme is the micro-manager. Sam A said it well, these guys can drive you nuts asking for revisions. I often send a simple concept drawing because I do not want misunderstandings. Putting together scenes can sometimes be really tricky and time-consuming.

 

[Ray Cover]

Here ya go Chris, Its still in mirror image with my notes on it to replace the image on the bottom panel.

I don't deal well with micro managers either. Most of my customers don't do that to me but ever5y now and then I get one who wants to tell me how to place each cut. Those guys usually get charged a little extra for the extra time they cost me. You can usually tell pretty quick when your walking into that kind of job.

 

[Andrew Biggs]

I'm similar to everyone else. Like Ray, I have to plan my work on paper first. The designs are just to complex and have a tendency to evolve rather than come from one straight idea. Sometimes I nail it immediately but most of the time it takes a few hours.....sometimes it seems to take forever. I always present drawings but won't let the client micro manage anything about the project and the only alterations I'll make are simple ones like a lettering style etc.

I have a tendency to do some of my drawings in the evenings and always charge for them. Depending on the customer, they are either charged into the overall work, or charged separately. But I do put a cap on it if the process becomes to long winded and I'm suffering from "designers block" The swings and roundabouts rule seems to kick in over time.

And yes, my work has been copied. Someone from Italy was selling a watch with my design on it and poorly executed to boot. The amazing part was that the actual watch case was genuine but from the wrong series. I didn't know weather I should be flattered or insulted!!!

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Christopher Malouf]

Thanks Ray!!! The transfer outline is cool but I was hoping you would post the final pencil drawing from that itty bitty book That's alright ... I'm just razzing ya man lol!! Had a feeling you would as you're the most helpful around when it comes to providing straightforward info.

Brian completely missed what I was saying. It's not necessarily someone attempting to pass off something as the original artist's engraving but as their own engraving .... in whole or in part. Even the pencil artwork itself might turn up on some black market album cover on the other side of the world. Be great if technical ability alone were a sufficient deterrent. Good luck with that anyway.

I guess it is all how you look at and that stuff makes the original more desirable as there really is no such thing as bad publicity anyway.

It takes me way too long to draw this stuff to post it. Design and drawing is the hardest part while the technical engraving side is the easy part so it should have significantly more value and be treated as such.

 

[James Roettger]

I always first qualify the customer. They must be coming to me at my store because they love my work above what other jewelers are doing. If they are just getting bids on wedding rings and looking to compare competitive designs amongst jewelers I don't offer to do anything and they go away. The first stage is to discuss the design in detail and create a focus, eliminating all extraneous options. Once a clear concept is determined and a very rough counter sketch is settled on I tell them I need time to figure out cost and details of the piece. As soon as possible (one business day is best) I email them the exact bid to make the piece. If the bid is acceptable I then do a detailed "blue print" sketch actual size with as many views as is needed to make the piece. 90% of the designs I do after following this process result in a sale. For engraving though were drawing the design is half the work I find it best to just say, "trust me" based on samples of my work. If you spend an hour on a layout for a job that takes another hour to engrave you take a big risk giving them a chance to throw out that first hour of work. In any case, NEVER sell a job and take a down payment where the design or some elements of it are still subject to approval later. People will jump into micro manage mode if things can be changed once the job is started.

 

[monk]

i'm like palladin,-- have laptop, will travel. no matter the design, it always ends up in corel draw. bitmap, vector, foto, whatever. i show folks what i'm in favor of doing, by actual engraved samples scroll/ lettering/designs, etc. they are given a choice of what they like. no actual drawing or electronic image is given out. i will do paper drawings and toss them into a file for a particular customer.
i always advise that i control the process, and mention the "judgement thingy". shown the least bit of hesitation to trust me, hey i can always go watch judge judy ! i'm told it's interesting, but have never enjoyed that viewing experience.

 

[BrianPowley]

When dealing with new customers and before I put any pencil to paper, I cut to the chase and just flat out ask, "How much do you want to spend?"
I require 30-50% of that as a deposit (customer's choice) and go from there. It separates the serious from the curious.
...and FWIT: Charge what you need to earn for the job. There's nothing worse than having your customers commission turn into you favorite charity.

 

[Brian Hochstrat]

Chris, protection from what? So what if somebody used my work on an album cover, tattoo, whatever. I don't offer any of those services, I just do engraving, so how would that have any effect on my business? I have few competitors, I am friends with most of them, if they were to copy something then that would be a problem and I would just give them a call, but they are all skilled artists, so why would they need to copy me? Also why would I refrain from posting something I wanted show to someone, out of petty fear and or insecurity? So you are right, perhaps I don't get your point and probably won't, I just don't have that "everybodies out to get me" attitude.

Thanks again all for the helpful input.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Being a goldsmith jewel designer and engraver, mostly taking orders making jewellery that was never made, sure most of the time I have to start with a design.
It only happens once in a 20 years having a customer sayingâ€￾ make me something nice whatever it looks like no matter the costs.

I have a lot of designs on the Internet and sure I’m robbed one some from time to time, so I must be good.

Now as long as I can make a good living, I don’t care and waiting till Coca Cola steals one of my designs.

arnaud

 

[Christopher Malouf]

That's an interesting response Brian considering the subject of copyright has come up many times and it's been more than one of the master engravers who have brought it up. You're very fortunate to have enough talent that you can afford to give it away. Much more fortunate than I and many others are that's for sure. Like I said, good luck with that pal and take care ...... please accept my apologies for simply mentioning the obvious and let's call it a day.

 

[Brian Hochstrat]

No worries Chris it's two different ways of looking at something, and I never stated you couldn't view it your way, it's just not how I see things. And just as a correction, it is my artwork, not the clients. Best of luck to you.