This is a question for my fellow engravers. Since Altay Tuzuner visited here I have been playing with some true demascening (sp?). When he was here I got some very fine wire from him to use in the demascening. Well that supply is about gone and I don't know where to find gold wire THAT fine here in the US. The smallest wire I can find in any of the gold suppliers catalogs is 30 ga or about .010". This stuff I got form Altay measures .002". I can't find a draw plate tha fine and I am not sure I could draw it that fine. I am afraid I would burn up the wire trying to anneal it when that fine. Do any of you fellow engravers out there know of a source for such wire?
I need a Source for .002" or .003" gold wire.
- Thread starter Ray Cover
- Start date
Ray: I've rolled 24k wire between two 3/4" lathe bits to make it thinner. Have you tried anything like that?
I don't really want to go to that extent if I can find a source to just buy it. All I have is a torch to anneal with so when wire gets much smaller than .008" or so I have trouble not burning it up. I also am thinking about his for several projects so I am going to need several feet of wire.
Andrea Kennington says she can make a die to draw it that small but I don't want o have to buy a kiln for annealing, a die, and then spend my time on top of that if there is a place out there somewhere that sells it that fine.
Ray
Andrea Kennington says she can make a die to draw it that small but I don't want o have to buy a kiln for annealing, a die, and then spend my time on top of that if there is a place out there somewhere that sells it that fine.
Ray
GTJC460
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
That's getting down to almost the thickness of a human hair! I think the only way you will get wire that thin is to roll it between two pieces of heavy steel plate.
OR....
Possibly take a gold bar/rod, and turn some shavings off the bar at that increment.
Either way, its going to be pretty darn difficult to get the gold that thin.
I don't know of any jewelry sources selling this thin of wire. Maybe someone in an electronics field might have some this thin
OR....
Possibly take a gold bar/rod, and turn some shavings off the bar at that increment.
Either way, its going to be pretty darn difficult to get the gold that thin.
I don't know of any jewelry sources selling this thin of wire. Maybe someone in an electronics field might have some this thin
Barry Lee Hands
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Hi Ray, normally I think of damascene as overlay using material less than .004 inch thick.
But, I have found .006 wire for microwelding works pretty good.
As you know, how well it will attach depends on the height of the burrs relative to the material.
About a 3:1 ratio of material to burr seems to work best for me. 2:1 would be max.
it your are using .006, your burrs should be about .001-.0015, as the wire will flatten to about .002-.003 in.
This is very heavy material for Japanese damascene, which is what I was trained in, however, it is a start.
Chris Malouf I believe has a line on smaller stuff.
Also, you can use a small square graver, and make your own wire, cutting it as a burr, from sheet.
Damascene is a lot of fun, good luck with it.
But, I have found .006 wire for microwelding works pretty good.
As you know, how well it will attach depends on the height of the burrs relative to the material.
About a 3:1 ratio of material to burr seems to work best for me. 2:1 would be max.
it your are using .006, your burrs should be about .001-.0015, as the wire will flatten to about .002-.003 in.
This is very heavy material for Japanese damascene, which is what I was trained in, however, it is a start.
Chris Malouf I believe has a line on smaller stuff.
Also, you can use a small square graver, and make your own wire, cutting it as a burr, from sheet.
Damascene is a lot of fun, good luck with it.
KCSteve
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Ray
Would the 'diving board' technique* help with annealing the very fine wire?
* - For those who haven't read it: Set the coil of wire to be annealed on a metal plate, heat the plate from the bottom until the wire reaches annealing temp, then (if needed) tip the plate to dump off the wire.
Would the 'diving board' technique* help with annealing the very fine wire?
* - For those who haven't read it: Set the coil of wire to be annealed on a metal plate, heat the plate from the bottom until the wire reaches annealing temp, then (if needed) tip the plate to dump off the wire.
tsterling
Elite Cafe Member
Try this trick I learned from Ford Hallam - color the wire with a black Sharpie permanent marker (I've tried it successfully with gold, silver and copper). Put the wire in a small tin can (I use an Altoids bottom), heat with a torch from the bottom, and when the Sharpie color disappears, the wire is annealed.
Then, that Ray Cover guy taught me to quench the hot wire in alcohol, and when the wire screams then any fire scale disappears. No pickling needed...
Tom
Then, that Ray Cover guy taught me to quench the hot wire in alcohol, and when the wire screams then any fire scale disappears. No pickling needed...
Tom
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Fire scale on 24k?
Harbor Freight gold!
Montejano
Elite Cafe Member
Hi Ray
I have not understood very well. Do you want to find gold wire as thin hair with hair?
In Toledo (Spain) are some of the best teachers in the world and used damascene gold wire as thin as a hair (head hair). I bought this a while so thin gold wire. I do not remember if it was 22 karat gold or 24 karat, but is used by teachers of Toledo, for the gold inlay. But it is an extremely thin gold wire.
Montejano
I have not understood very well. Do you want to find gold wire as thin hair with hair?
In Toledo (Spain) are some of the best teachers in the world and used damascene gold wire as thin as a hair (head hair). I bought this a while so thin gold wire. I do not remember if it was 22 karat gold or 24 karat, but is used by teachers of Toledo, for the gold inlay. But it is an extremely thin gold wire.
Montejano
K Frei
Elite Cafe Member
Stuller sells gauged wire as thin as 36ga which should be about .004, but I haven't measured mine. You will find it under the laser wire section. Also (not knowing what alloy) sometimes they will produce what you need for you, but I will warn that you will have to buy A LOT for them to be willing to do it.
Doc Mark
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Why does Damascene call for such ultra fine wire? I understand that the technique is about very thin layers of gold or silver fused to steel, but I thought they used gold sheet only slightly thicker than standard gold foil. To make any design of any appreciable width, with wires the thickness of a human hair, you would need to use a tremendous number of wires laid side to side to cover the design surface. What am I missing here?
mtgraver
Elite Cafe Member
Doc
Great question, well put, I've always been under the assumption that the foil would cover a large area, by burnishing and not punching down. Used on either a high or low relief area, of most interesting is the 17th/18th c. high art guns. This is a fascinating subject for me. I've been wanting to do a piece using this technique but ,lol ....... needing a better understanding before the attempt. Am I way off base? I guess I should say, I'm looking from a strictly decorative point of view not durability from heavy shooting or use.
Mark
Great question, well put, I've always been under the assumption that the foil would cover a large area, by burnishing and not punching down. Used on either a high or low relief area, of most interesting is the 17th/18th c. high art guns. This is a fascinating subject for me. I've been wanting to do a piece using this technique but ,lol ....... needing a better understanding before the attempt. Am I way off base? I guess I should say, I'm looking from a strictly decorative point of view not durability from heavy shooting or use.
Mark
No one is missing anything. I am looking for hair thin wire. I am experimenting here. I have not lost my mind. I am forging forward and exploring into new areas without question or reserve.
Gentlemen, that is how we got to the moon and back.
Ray
Gentlemen, that is how we got to the moon and back.
Ray
Mike Cirelli
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Boric Acid and alcohol works well to reduce fire scale. Simply dip into before annealing, then pickle when done. As far as getting 30g wire Stuller, United precious metals or most refinery's will have it. As Barry mentioned you could use some of the laser welding wires. I think I would stay away from the zinc free wire though it probably would not anneal well.
Montejano
Elite Cafe Member
Hi Ray
I hope you find the golden thread in USA.
If you do not find that golden thread small diameter, please let me know, to buy in Spain and I'll send to you to USA.
Montejano
I hope you find the golden thread in USA.
If you do not find that golden thread small diameter, please let me know, to buy in Spain and I'll send to you to USA.
Montejano
Degs
Elite Cafe Member
I can get down to around 0.003"/0.004" (0.1mm) with this draw plate. http://www.cooksongold.com/Jewellery-Tools/Round-Drawplate-0.1-0.6mm-20-Holes-prcode-999-0266#... good quality. I can hardly see the smallest hole, thin as a hair. Fiddly... yes... you lose an inch or so while drawing, but I draw a a few feet of 0.5mm at a time which gives me several yards of very fine stuff... which lasts me ages. If you have access to an electric hotplate... that works for me as regards annealing. Slow fiddly process but then again I only do it once or twice a year. Hope that helps.
Chujybear
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Very intriguing.
I'm no help in sourcing wire. But you've woken up my imagination. I'll be standing by to see what you're up to.
I'm no help in sourcing wire. But you've woken up my imagination. I'll be standing by to see what you're up to.
golden forge
Elite Cafe Member
Damascening has intrigued me for some time, there is a Tibetan shaffron from around the 15th-17th century that I have pictures of with damascening on it, and it has peaked my interest for about five years now on how to do it. I would love to see photos of what you are doing and maybe a brief description of how you are doing it?
Oh and here is a close up shot of the shaffron, I know its not the most fancy thing out there, but it has made me want to learn more on how to do it.
Oh and here is a close up shot of the shaffron, I know its not the most fancy thing out there, but it has made me want to learn more on how to do it.
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