Techniques definitions

[KCSteve]

Zernike,

The reason the classes are worth the money is both subtle and simple:

You can learn a lot from the materials available - the books, videos, and especially web sites like this one.

But the difference between learning from a 'fixed' source like these and having someone standing right next to you to see what you're doing and say 'No, like this' with a live demonstration is the difference between someone telling you about the great steak they're eating versus giving you a bite.

As I said, it seems like such a smal difference but in reality it's huge.

 

[FANCYGUN]

It's 6:30 in the morning and my coffee isn't strong enough. I think I'll give up engraving because I don't know what I am doing with all this terminology. Maybe I'll take up house painting, doggie walking or become a professional "Flogger" after my in service training in Reno.

 

[qndrgnsdd]

You see the problem with dictionaries is that they are trying to be very precise in a fluid world. The word "dot" may be defined as a tiny ROUND spot but the reality is that somthing very tiny may be any shape and still be a dot, it is not required to be round just tiny. I am older than most of you and when I first encountered the word "bulino" it was always paired with the word work..."bulino work" or making tiny dots with a burin or bulino. American English is a living language as you can see in the dropping of the word work from the term as we first imported it. This is exactly what makes English difficult and gives it beauty!
I was teaching an engraving class a few years ago and one of the students brought a knife that Sam Alfano had engraved. It caused several students to be discouraged about their first efforts, untill I showed them the knife under 200 power microscope. They could see that even what looked perfect wasn't when viewed close enough (no offense meant Sam, it was a beautiful job!)

 

[Rick Eaton]

Marty,
I believe you have coined a new term that most people on this post have missed "Bankolino", I like this word very much because it discribes the type of engraving I do as well. I will be using that if you don't mind. We can call it the american version of "Italian Bulino" . Bankolino it even sounds american.

On another note I look forward to your seminar in reno on bankolino, what time is it going to be on monday? I'm staying an extra day for it. Our show is ending this year on saturday, so I'll be down there bugging you guys on sunday.
All the best
Rick

 

[finn]

Rick Eaton

wow your web page is wonderful and your engraving skills are incredible your skill in bankolino are very nice. great work.
and who ever made your web page really knows there stuff! i love it when i mouse over your pictures how it enlarges the work.

 

[Sam]

Zernike:
When comparing the cost of an engraving class to an art or music class, the engraving class might be considerably more expensive. If you take a drawing or painting class, can you start making money with your new skills? Maybe you can, but odds are it will be months or years before you can make a serious income. If you're an experienced engraver and take an advanced course such as bulino, diamond setting, western engraving, or steel sculpting, you can add your new skills to your work and make the course pay for itself, often very quickly.

I know many engravers, artists, and musicians who are extremely talented, but cannot communicate well and inspire students to learn. When it comes to engraving classes in the USA, a person has quite a few options. There are very expensive classes and very inexpensive classes. Like anything else, shop and compare and choose one that will suit your needs.

You use the term "crazy expensive". I've heard many students say they were crazy not to have taken a class sooner.

~Sam

 

[FANCYGUN]

Zernike.Thanks I won't go into the dog walking business after all. BUT.I never did say I knew what I was doing. When asked about doing game scenes i usually say I lay out my shadow first and then FAKE IT from there. What you say is true about engraving.It is just a dot or a line.but the hard part is figuring out what to do with that line or dot. That is where experience and personal vision comes into play as Sam pointed out,just because you can do something does not mean you can also be a good teacher.

Rick.It is a honor knowing you are hanging out an extra day to hear me ramble in the morning about BANKOLINO. I'll save you a seat up front.HEY>take Andrews seat. While you're hanging out on sunday stop over and I'll show you my Bankolino Girlie Gun that I finally finished up since you saw the pieces in Ks.

What about the phrase BULINOTE???Could that work out also?

 

[qndrgnsdd]

too much like Bullynote...the old $500 bill

 

[Rick Eaton]

Finn,
Thanks for the kind words. As far as computers go, If I had one in my shop it probabley wouldn't last to long because I would pick up a forging hammer and try to forge it.
Thats why I have Daniel do my page he does a great job.

Marty,
I'll be there monday with pen and paper. Look forward to seeing your girly gun.
Rick

 

[michaelp]

Rick, from what I hear, if you are going to be in the front row you should be wearing a raincoat with a hood

 

[FANCYGUN]

Hey gang.................in all seriousness.this is a good and important thread trying to clarify definitions. No matter how Andrew might pronounce them.
Raincoats.BAH.what about very high rubber boots

 

[Mike Cirelli]

As I read through the many post. There seems to be a lot of good response here. I think what Thierry was trying to accomplish was a short definition of certain techniques to be explained in layman terms for the customer. A short and sweet explanation to a person trying to learn the art and has some understanding is fine. I think most artists me included at times fall short of explaining a technique or what truly is involved.

For example an inlayed line is much more complicated and time consuming than explained by, cutting a line slightly dovetailing the line and smashing gold in it.

If you truly think about it and explain it correctly. The inlay has to be thought out, maybe even layed out on paper, precisely measured and laid out on the item to be engraved, The line is cut with extraordinary skill, the undercut needs even more skill and accuracy or the item can be damaged or the line inconsistent when finished. Ok now the lines cut.
Next the gold or whatever metal your using needs to be skillfully chosen to match the opening that was engraved. If not chosen correctly the inlay could fail or worse it could fall out at a latter time, after the customer has the item. Then the metal is carefully chased into the engraved relief, being extremely careful not to disturb the original surface. Then the gold is stoned down with special tooling stones of various grits in a time consuming process in order to bring the gold to the original surface. After the inlay is finished shading may be applied to the gold with a graver sharpened to precise angles.

Now if you were to buy something, which do you think you would pay more for and be willing to pay more for.
When the process is explained to the customer step by step whether they understand it or not. You build a trust with the customer and they realize the skill and artistry that truly is being put forth.

Just my thoughts and I'm not criticizing anyone. Just something to think about if you want to put real value to your work.

 

[Sam]

You make me feel that learning engraving is only for making money but I know a lot of people out there are fasinated by this kind of art and want to learn to explore this wonderful world, now I have another question: Why learning engraving is more expensive than learning other art ( I mean take a class)?
Anyway, GRS's basic engraving class at a price of US$750 is acceptable!


To me all artist can communicate good, no matter you like them or hate them, they use different kind of "language", a painter use brush stroke and colors as his language, a musician use music note and his instrument as his language. How you can call him an artist if they cannot communicate? Let me know which artist who you think they cannot communicate well?...Share with me those many extremely talent whom you mentioned, please.

Zernike

Zernike...many people learn engraving for a hobby or personal enrichment, and many take classes to make themselves more valuable in their workplaces, etc.

Expensive classes: What's expensive to one person is not expensive to another, so it's impossible to define 'expensive'. In America there are many options for classes, from cheap to very expensive, so everyone can find one they can afford. And for those who can't travel or afford take a class, iGraver.com has plenty of tutorials for free, and a fantastic resource called The Engraver's Cafe!

I can't speak for other schools because I've not taught in them (except for a couple overseas), but I can tell you that in my GRS classes I've had students come back to take intermediate, jewelry engraving, advanced, and expert classes. It's not uncommon to see a student that's been in 2 or 3 (or more) of my other classes. And many of my students go on to take Chris' bulino class, Diane's western engraving class, Ron Smith's class, etc, and many of their students will sign up for my classes as well a other instructors' classes. These students are not returning because they're being polite. They're returning because they leave with new techniques, fresh ideas, and a confidence and desire to excell.

As for artists who cannot communicate for teaching, it's not necessary to mention names. If you can communicate with Michelangelo by studying his brush strokes and learn to paint, then that's great! Most of us can't do that and need a teacher who can start us at the beginning and show us the steps, helping us to avoid problems and frustrations.

Cheers ! / ~Sam

 

[pierre]

hi all ,
I think that you have a confusion between the tools and the technique.
A burin (cold chisel) is used whith the hammer.
A bulino is the italian word of push hand graver ( echope in french )
now, you have the banknote technique ( cuting line in metal whith different variation cross, //,small cut,...) this is the technique of Durer and so many engraver from the past, this technique garantee the enraving in the time.
You have the calling dot technique used by Fracassi and a lot of Italian engraver, with this technique, you can have a very hight definition (like a fotography) but you can't use the it so you use this technique only for collection gun.
for the banknote or the dot technique, you are use a hand push graver (bulino) but you just have a different sharpening bit.
know the question is what's the technique they learn at GRS

 

[Christian DeCamillis]

Let me see if I can clear up some of the confusion. First the word bulino is the italian word for graver , Its that simple, what has happened over the years is that this word has become synonomous with the tecnique used by the italian engravers to do game scenes etc.. why or how is only speculation, but it is what it is. The tecniques used in producing the imigas is done by means of using dots witch are in effect little dianond shapes. lines or dashes. or a combination of all of the above. The line tecnique is much harder to understand than one only using dots. The dierction of the line the depth of the line layers of a series of lines cut over each other to create depth and texure,all play an effect on the outcome. that is a quick overview. One must rember that even a person that is excellent at drawing may not be good at engraving their drawings and vise versa.I think that until you figure out that this tecnique is not drawing on metal but actually sculpting in a microscopic manner as to give form and texture your result will not be what you hoped for. engraving is three dimensional and drawing is two dimensional. if you want black for instance then you must also add depth not just lines dots ect.. closer together. also the direction that you cut the lines plays in part to the degree of black you can accquire. As far as the amount of detail that you engrave, it is nessasary to engrave every detail every blade of grass every hair etc.. to tell people that ist is not neccesary is a disservice. the rules of drawing dont completly comply with engraving it is similar in many ways but also very different in others.If you examine and I have examined a lot of the finest engraving you will see that all the details are there. Until you stop drawing on metal. you result will be good but not great. As far as what I teach at GRS is concerned. I teach people how to make all the cuts nessasary to achive a desired effect ,in otherwords not how to engrave a duck a dog a deer, but how to make the cuts to make feathers to produce fur how to give your animals and such first dimension and then how to add the details. The graver that we sharpen is the same as the picture of the handout in this thread. This graver geometry is almost the same as the one used by the italians for scroll work as well ,and with this bulino tool you can cut deep curves without draging if you know how to use this tool properly. As far as what is charged for a class is concerned,wether or not its too expensive is subjective. I know that what I paid for the grand masters classes I took was worh every penny and they are more than the bulino class. One other note the advanced courses student must be approved by the instructor this assures that you have th skill level and we are concern ed that you get the most out of a class, not all are accepted. If ther are any students that have taken the bulino class as well as any of the more expensive advanced classes please let us know your opinions Thanks Chris

 

[FANCYGUN]

Well Chris.........I will still be drawing with my gravers and I still do not think every detail is necessary to engrave. This is what makes each of us unique as is our backgrounds.

 

[Ray Cover]

Chris,

I need you explain something to me. This is just for clarification in my mind and my own understanding.

I know that there is a great variety in the diameter, roundness, strength, etc.of human hair from one person to another. I pulled a hair out of my own head and measured the diameter. It measured .001" Now my head is aprox 9.5 inches from chin to the top of my hair.

That would mean that if someone were to engrave a portrait of me on a 1" square area those hairs would have to be less then .0001" or one tenth of one thousandth of an inch in order to be to scale with the rest of the portrait.

I seriously question any engravers ability to to layout and cut a line so thin that he can outline and shade a hair that is only .0001" in width. I also question the ability of the average human eye to be able to even see the individual hairs at that scale.

Most 8x10 photographs will not even pick up each and every hair as individual hairs. Some get lost in the highlights and some in the dark shadows, some you see part of the hair until the light value changes then it visually blends into those next to it, etc.

Is it not better to cut the hair so you have the illusion of having every hair in place rather than actually trying to count and cut each and every hair to scale?

Ray

 

[Christian DeCamillis]

Ray I think that you are taking what I am saying too literal, what I am saying is that for instance if you were engraving an animal with fur you do not want to leave blank spots as you might in drawing were your eye might fill in,because since the metal is reflective you will end up with a flat spot. Chris

 

[Ray Cover]

Thanks Chris,

That makes a whole lot more sense to me.

Ray

 

[Rick Eaton]

Chris,
Is there an easy explanation about how to cut deep scrollwork with the bulino without dragging?

The Grandmasters class I took with Churchill was well worth it. Just wish I could aford to take more.
Rick