Tip for knife engravers

[Brian Hochstrat]

I learned something the other day that may be helpful to others. After finishing an engraving job on an interframe folder, I went to open the knife and found it had really tightened. What to do? Well luckily Dwight Towell is my neighbor( for those who don't know, he is a top end knife maker and a fine engraver) , he came over and saved the day. He showed me two tricks. To loosen them, once tight, he had some allen wrenches that he had ground a foot ball shape on the end and it worked like a mini pry bar, he gently worked the area around the pin for a few minutes and a shot of wd-40 and it was back to original action. The other tip was, to eleviate tightening, cut a block of micarta that snuggly fits into the opened knife, it fills that space so it cannot get as tight.
Yeah, Midvale Id. is a real hot bed for engraving, 1 out of 40 people here are engravers, maybe the highest per capita in the nation. Only thing is there is only a population of 80.
Hope that little tip is useful to someone. Brian

 

[ihsfab]

Thanks for the tip Brian. It will save a headache later on.

 

[Sam]

Brian: I have a similar set of knife tweakers Warren Osborne made for me years ago. I would excercise extreme caution when using them. In fact, I've never recommended or discussed them much since a heavy handed person can really screw up a knife action with them. When I do use them, I have a couple of pieces of thin feeler gauge material I place inside the knife and then insert the tweaker between them. This protects the inner surfaces of the frame. If the tweaker should make a dent or cast a bur, then it could be a real mess trying to fix. The feeler gauge material is hard and springy and offers some protection. To avoid complications I would highly recommend send the knife back to the maker for adjustment if it tightens (and many DO tighten). And don't forget that if you tweak too much, you might create a circular ring around the hinge pin. Another engraver's nightmare.

Joe Kious cleans knives after assembly with green Lux liquid detergent by flooding the pivot and working the action several times. I've done this after engraving and it really does help get the gunk out, and quite often improves the action dramatically.

~Sam

 

[Brian Hochstrat]

Sam, you bring up a good piont, I was concerned about getting a ring but it had to be loosened so I was ready for the consequences, but it worked out fine. The next one I will use a shim and hopefully prevent the problem.
Dwight also showed me a photo of a knife you had engaved for him back in the 80's, I could see it was your work right off, but it did have a different look than what you are doing now. Interesting to see how styles evolve. Brian

 

[Andy]

Being a knife maker this comes up often for me. I rarely have to adjust a knife after engraving though. Why are you pounding so hard? This is an art of finesse..... I usually have to tweak the knife after peening the pivot pin during assembly. I originally made a fixture which works like a miniature jaws of life. A turn of the screw would exert pressure inside the handle. After I saw a photo of the fixture like that which you guys are talking about I made one. I was amazed how little effort was required to spring the opening. On my first attempt I immediately over did it. Fortunately I had yet to grind the end off the pin so it was only a matter of repeening the knife back tighter. So, like Sam mentioned, go easy if you really want to try this. It can be a disaster once the engraving is finalised.

 

[Ron Smith]

Andy, it isn't the pounding so much, unless you are doing inlays or sculpting. It is the holding problems. There is such diversity in handle shapes, methods to hold the knife, and there is so much pressure required just to hold the piece securily, that it is a problem. Especially for the very high end knives that work like watches and the tolerences are very close. This is one of the pitfals of doing high quality knife engraving. Over time, with help from the knifemakers, we have worked out holding techniques to solve some of these problems, but the first time knife engravers usually learn this the hard way. No one to tell them, you have to change tactics........I did many high end knives and it was a constant struggle, even with spacers, tweekers and all. It is touchy even for the experienced engravers.....Ron S

 

[Marcus Hunt]

Ron, have you tried thermoloc? I've just got back to the UK from Kansas and whilst there engraved a Centofante knife. DJ Glaser made some jaws out of thermoloc for me using his new kit and they worked brilliantly. We discovered that more of the plastic was needed to stop vibration when inlaying and stippling so he used the widest spacers and that gave a big enough area to clamp securely and damp out any bounce. The beauty of his new kit is it has spacers that make it difficult to over tighten. Chris DeCamillis warned me about the potential tightening problem but there was none and that included inlaying gold. The thermoloc can be molded to the oddest of shapes as you know and now that the process means you have 2 jaws work removal from it is really easy.

 

[Jack Davenport]

precision folding knives

Hello engravers all: I just walked out of my shop and picked up on this subject, GRS makes a holding device that has several adjustments that will accomodate most folding knives and a lot of straight knives, this device was designed by someone who is in tune with this problem that is dicussed in the preceding posts. I use the device that I am talking about, but I am a proffesional folding knifemaker and a wanna be engraver. the problem with clamping folders is that if the whole stack of parts are skewn in any direction this will throw off the precision alignment that is so hard to incorporate into the making of the knife. Most likely the collector has opened and closed the knife hundreds of time before he sent it off to be engraved, so he or she will notice any change in the knife after engraving. Does anyone own one of the holding devices that I speak of? What do you say Sam?

 

[Russ Sutton]

Jack:

I'm also much more of a knifemaker than an engraver. The GRS holding devise is called a Knifemaker's Contour Vise (#003-622 Knifemaker’s Contour Vise $89) and I use one for both folders and hunters. It works great and seems to eliminate folders getting tight as a result of being engraved. I have also used it to hold a 1911 Colt Gold Cup slide for engraving. When I have had the problem after receiving the knife from an engraver, I use a very small amount 0.5 micron diamond paste applied with a flat toothpick to the pivot area of the blade. Generally, after opening and closing the blade a few hundred times the problem will be corrected. I pour rubbing alcohol in the mechanism and continue to work the action which will wash out any remaining diamond paste. I have much better success with the diamond paste than spreading the frame with wedges. Russ

 

[Sam]

Back in the '80's I started molding custom holding fixtures for each knife I engraved using wooden blocks and a two-part epoxy putty. I believe it was Tom Overeynder who came up with the idea. I made many this way and eventually replaced the putty with Bondo because it was faster, easier, and cheaper than the epoxy putty. Now I use Thermo-Loc.

The fixtures I make are molded to each side of the knife and fit the contour perfectly, so stresses are distributed evenly as it's tightened. To this day I believe this is the best type of system for holding custom knives. As for the GRS fixture, I tested early models made by Bob Finlay (the inventor), and while it works as designed, I prefer a molded fixture.

Ron Smith's right...these high-end knives can be very touchy. Even Hoels and Busfields with their superduper tapered pin arrangment can tighten a bit, especially when doing gold inlay. I used to shim the insides with micarta or wood cut to fit, but abandoned that because I wasn't seeing a benefit.

Beginner knife engravers should take whatever time necessary to make a proper fixture for knives. If not, it can cost you dearly. Many knifemakers are skittish about working with a new engraver who may not have the experience in both holding AND refinishing their knives after engraving. Some prefer to have the engraver work directly with the customer so they're out of the loop and assume no liability. I've spent many hours talking to makers about holding their knives and how they achieve their final finish. I've gone as far as to get private refinishing lessons in the hotel at a knife show. These guys are masters at what they do, and there's a LOT of good information to be learned from them. Communicate with them! It shows you're serious about doing a good job on their knives, and they appreciate and respect that. It also makes them much more comfortable dealing with (and recommending) you. / Sam

 

[pilkguns]

well said Sam, I was thinking about writing a post saying nearly all the same things and then at the end here is your post that says it all.

your post needs to go in the permanent tips section.

 

[Joe Mason]

Tightening up of an interframe will happen to you at some point. I would say most of them will tighten. I have worked with Tom Overeynder on several knives and have learned a lot of why they tighten up and how to correct them. Tom request that I use thermo lock to hold the knives. It helps a lot. I also use the knife holding devise and cannot tell any difference. When I hot glue the knife to a board is when I get the most tightening. Removing background changes the stress in the metal and it may move or twist on you. Just a little, but enough to make the blade drag. Inlaying gold and stippling the background also are good reasons why this happens. Think about how a pin is set. If a tapering tool is used on these small pins, you could have about .018â€￾ holding it. If you inlay a .020â€￾ wire through it, you may be about .012â€￾ deep with the channel. Or you remove .010â€￾ to relieve the background. You may actually remove background only on one side of the pin. Another big problem is chips and dust.

Before you engrave a knife, give it a good inspection. Does the blade free fall when lock is released? Does the blade ride on the locking bar when closing? You want to send the knife home the way you got it. There are many stories about engravers tightening up knives. Collectors and purveyors do not like to send the knives back to the maker for repairs. Some high-end makers will want you to send the knife to them for repair. They don’t want one of their knives not working properly. Some makers may not help.

 

[Sam]

Another thing that bears mentioning when it comes to custom knives is stone handle materials. While it's possible to polish mother-of-pearl, stone materials are usually impossible to polish without special equipment and know-how. This is where engravers have really screwed up in the past, thinking they could refinish a knife that had scales made of jade or other stone. The knife ends up going back to the maker who has no choice but to refinish the entire knife which ruins the engraving (they cannot selectively polish the stone). There have been some real horror stories, so be extremely careful if you're engraving a knife with stone scales. One scratch or scuff can get you into really big trouble.

As the amount of risk increases, I charge accordingly. / ~Sam

 

[Brian Hochstrat]

Thats why this forum is such a valuable tool. You don't know what you don't know, and sometimes you don't realize it until its to late. I just learned a few things right there, Thanks Sam. I also think if I am going to pursue the high end knife engraving and be a success, I need to take the time and hang out with Dwight a little more and learn more about knives in general, finishing, how they work and other pitfalls I don't want to learn the hard way.Brian

 

[Sam]

Brian: Very early in my career I engraved an Osborne knife for Steve Hoel's wife. Warren Osborne saw the knife and asked me why I didn't restore his original finish on the bolsters when I was finished with the engraving. I was embarrassed that he thought my finish job was sub-standard, but it was. He then explained how he did the beautiful, flawless finishes on his knives, and encouraged me to do the same. At another show he brought his finishing gear and demonstrated his technique for me in our hotel room (we roomed together quite a bit at shows).

If you have access to Dwight Towell, then by all means spend as much time learning about knives as you can. It doesn't stop with holding, engraving, and finishing. Learn about the steels and methods of construction and you'll have a much better appreciation of the knifemaker's art. Your expanded knowledge will also be well received by collectors. / ~Sam

 

[Joe Mason]

Also Brian, you want be able to use the high speed tools the makers do. You will figure out how to do the same thing by hand.

Joe

 

[Glenn]

Hey Sam, how about a little more information on what Warren demonstrated to you. Maybe a tutorial?

 

[en2siastic]

I’m working on a production knife, (Sog Gentleman), I glued it on a square steel bar, not on a piece of wood, like that I just heat the bottom of the steel bar to melt the glue. I engrave the knife in open position. To prevent deformation I cut the tail of an HSS drill bit of exact size and insert it inside the handle. HSS tail is polished so it doesn’t scratch the inside. Also you can find any size you need.
Well maybe I’m doing something stupid…..
Best regards.
Francis

 

[Ron Smith]

Marcus, I am a serious believer in thermoloc. D.J. sent me a hammer handle right after I cut my thumb off that was contoured to fit the hand. This gave me an idea. I proceeded to make a thumb out of the thermoloc that you could hardly tell the difference from a real one if I was wearing a long sleeve shirt, I straped it on with a leather wrist band, but it was only good for cosmetic purposes. As far as engravng was concerned it was usless. It just got in the way. I have developed some other gizmos that have helped using thermoloc, but have gotten past the limits of wht hey could do. have used thermoloc for holding knives too and it is wonderful stuff. It is faster than most other holding methods. You can make a holding fixture right on the spot. Most of the troubles we had with holding the high end knives have been over come and I was talking about a period when we were learning how to cope with the problems we were having to engrave these fine knives. You have to exert so much pressure holding and hammering on them, it was on the edges of impossibility at that time. The knifemakers didn't understand this and it was a common problem, but working with the knifemakers we have essentially overcome these problems. Iwould venture to say that knifemakers getting involved with engravers and our problems have opened the door to solutions that work. DJ has come up ith some really good ideas for jewelers and engravers on how to make holding fixtures out of thermoloc. It is handy stuff to have around.............Ron S.

 

[Joe Mason]

Francis, I have not had any luck using shims. I have not tried metal thinking the bolster could tighten up on my shim and the liner could be damaged removing it.

Joe