Tip for knife engravers

[Ron Smith]

I would like to add to what Sam said in regards to learning the knifemaking trade, but it is equally as important for the knifemakers to learn the engraving trade so that we can work together. So far, it has been mostly on the engravers who have difficulty deaing with the fragility of the knives they have to work on and have done most of the work finding ways to deal with this problem. This is not the engravers fault and the holding and hammering pressures required to do a job are iniscapable. If you want your inlays to hold, you gotta do what you gotta do. The knifemakers hadn't had to deal with what they are procucing from the engravers standpoint, outside of having to tweak them to free them up from time to time, until some of them became involved with engraving. This has allowed them to see the delimma.
Therefore, Sam is correct in suggesting that we learn of the knifemakers methods, but lets not put the whole burden of responsibility on the engravers. Lets learn each others tactics and see how we can make it easier for all concerned. You cannot hammer on an egg can you? So, when you are treading the edges of impossibility, to make a long story short, ..........THERMOLOC it !!!!......but you are still goind to bind some blades. .........
I have the highest regard for the fine knife makers quality of the high end knives. Many of them are my friends and we worked well with each other, but Lets also have some respect and consideration for the processes and difficulties engravers have trying to decorate them.... ...........Ron S

 

[Jack Davenport]

Right on Sam: I like your idea about the molds, I will work on this and would like to have more input. Thanks

 

[Sam]

Good points, Ron. Engravers and knifemakers should spend some time in each other's shoes in order to really appreciate what we're all doing! / ~Sam

 

[ChrisB]

I'm a Knifemaker, (since 1985) I have started doing my own engraving, Well Trying!! the reason being that there are very few Engravers in south Africa, Over the last 2 years a lot of our Knifemaker Guild Members have also started taking Classes and do there own engraving (About 12 in Total) due to this Lack of Engravers.!!
That Said, I have Found that if I use a Thin Piece of Shim in between the Blade and liner, it helps to keep the Gap Constant while engraving, I cut a Piece like a U and insert it from the front with the blade Closed.
A lot of Guys that make folders and Pin there Pivot's do it this way for Clearance, Slipjoints.
And Yes I Agree the More we Learn about each others Passion,!! the better we will understand each others Problems.!!

 

[Rick Eaton]

What I have found that works pretty good, is hot glue to a wooden block. David Pardue told me about that years ago so I tried it, I've modified it a little by adding packing tape to the knife first, this helps hold the knife and not let glue stick in the engraving, when its time to take the knife off a little alcohol and it pops right off.
I also use micarta shims by the pivot pin, and you can hammer on the outside of the knife as much as you want without tightening the blade at all, a micart wedge can be used to open up a little if you use a little finese.

For the problem around an interframe inlay the best way I have found is to first put scotch tape over the inlay to protect from any scratches but don't cover any steel leaving a small gap, then cut a border (square graver) leaving a thin web of metal, being careful to not let the curl touch the inlay. Now you can take the scotch tape off and replace it with packing tape covering past the line you just cut. Take an exacto knife and trim the tape using the chanel you just cut. This will protect the inlay, you can inlay gold right up to the border without any problem of damaging the inlay. I usually don't have any problems with any inlays doing them this way.

Of course there was this time once, when I was not paying enough attention early one morning without enough coffee, that I slipped with the exacto knife while applying new packing tape, running the fresh blade accross the black lip pearl inlay . That was not a good morning.

Hope there will be some useful info here.
Rick

 

[Andy]

I agree with Rick. The hot glue method is the best I have found. While I really like the Thermoloc for a lot of things, the hot glue works well on the folders. I will even seal all the openings of the knife with glue keeping the swarf from the rotary tool out. I think the glue also acts as a bit of a cushion when pounding in gold.

 

[Sam]

So Andy and Rick, you just glue the knife down to a wooden block with hot glue? It would seem to me that it might be bouncy. Obviously not since you guys are engraving with this system. I remember Jon Robyn doing this, but I never tried it. / ~Sam

 

[Mike Cirelli]

I don't do much knife engraving but as Ron was saying about the thermoloc, that kind of stuff to me is a godsend. I remember trying to hold items with shellac and that stuff sucked even pitch wasn't much better. I know when I run into a problem it is usually because I was rushing and didn't inspect the item properly before starting. Whether it be a diamond or an old ring or whatever. A good through inspection before starting, documenting what you find and have the customer sign it, is good practice. It also gives the customer the confidence that their item will be handle in a professional manor.
Just thought I'd butt in.

 

[ddushane]

I've been using the hot glue too, Weldon Whitley told me about it, I put a layer of masking tape on, covering everthing except what's going to be engraved, also put a layer of tape on my micarta block that I'm glueing to, squirt alot hot glue on the block the full length of the knife handle & havn't had any trouble what so ever. I like it. Dwayne

 

[Kerry Bogan]

Do any of you find that some of the problems and solutions applied to knife engraving also applies to gun engraving? Some of the slides on automatics (for example) seem like they might give similar tightening or loosening problems as the results of engraving, background removal and inlay. Just wondering if anyone had any fitup issues during reassembly etc..
Kerry

 

[Ron Smith]

Kerry, Knives are particularly a problem as they are like fine watches, tuned and tolerences so close that the slightest wrong pressure sends them into blade freeze-up. Guns, are another matter. You can pound on them and not effect them much. The pressures to inlay gold or other metals is a non issue. I don't know what experience you have had, but the major problem in firearms is hardness, except for some of the custom guns that have not been heat treated. You can work on them in the white before they go through their final finishes and they are usually case hardened after engraving or whatever. Finished products are another matter. If you engrave on a finished gun, you will have to deal with the factory, final heat treating etc. Factory engravers don't have this concern so much with the exception of the modern alloys. They get to engrave on the soft steel, if that is possible now days as the alloys in firearms today, are murder in some cases. I envy the european engravers who usually don't do American products and so don't have to beat their brains out working on our alloys. I don't remember ever having problems with American guns binding or anything, unless they warp in the heat treating process...The only thing related to this is the fact that you have to crank down on some parts to hold them in your vise and this is another problem, figuring how to hold things...Hope this explains some things............Ron S

 

[Rick Eaton]

Sam,
I haven't had a problem with the hot glue method being bouncy. The only way it might be is if you let the glue build up too high. I usually trim it off occationally. The main reason for it holding so firm is the combination of the packing tape used with the hot glue.
Rick

 

[Jim-Iowa]

Do any of you find that some of the problems and solutions applied to knife engraving also applies to gun engraving? Some of the slides on automatics (for example) seem like they might give similar tightening or loosening problems as the results of engraving, background removal and inlay. Just wondering if anyone had any fitup issues during reassembly etc..
Kerry

I think this is a valid question. Since the slide on an autoloader that has been accurized is normally tweaked(tightened in the groove) and then and lapped to fit the grooves a slight tightening could present a problem with binding.
I would think it would be wise to engrave first and then do the final hand lapping/fitting?

 

[John B.]

Do any of you find that some of the problems and solutions applied to knife engraving also applies to gun engraving? Some of the slides on automatics (for example) seem like they might give similar tightening or loosening problems as the results of engraving, background removal and inlay. Just wondering if anyone had any fitup issues during reassembly etc..
Kerry

Hi Kerry.
Great question. And you are already getting different opinions.
For many auto slides I make up a piece of metal and fit it into the rail grooves if heavy or extensive inlay is involved.
Not so much from fear of distortion but to remove any "bounce" while seating the inlay.
These can be bought ready made from Brownell's if you don't want to make them.
Big hollow frames such as the Model 12 Winchester pump can be filled with CeroSafe or wood wedges to remove any bounce.
The lower front of the older Browning square back auto shotgun receiver and the Remington clones have a
paper thin spot milled out from the inside.
This needs support if you are doing even a punch dot background. Avoid inlay in this area IMO.
Even some rifle floor plates are milled out from the inside until very thin.
I used to fill this cavity with Bondo and fasten the floorplate to a wood or metal block.
Now I use GRS Thermo-Loc to do the same thing quicker.
Just some plain old wood spacers with some Thermo-Loc added will take the place of a lot of the special fixtures I have made in the past.
Such as support for the trigger guards from some of the double guns when doing inlay.
Now, it does not have to fit the inside shape well to give support.
Just a block to grip in the vise with a small, narrow block sticking up.
Pack around this small block with Thermo-Loc to fit the inside of the guard and screw the guard to the base block.
Just my way, others may have different thoughts.
Best to you, hope this helps.
John B.

 

[Kerry Bogan]

Thanks for the response
Ron I'm just starting gun engraving and it's mostly on antique guns and a 1950s model 94 so no real heat treating issues yet.
Jim Yes some slides are a very precise fit and that makes sense about acurizing
John Lots of good info there, thanks. By the way I'm building a fixture for an automatic like the one you had at the 06 FEGA show.
Kerry

 

[fegarex]

Kerry,
Once you do the 94 you become spoiled! They are one of the sweetest guns to engrave. The metal is "just right". Not too hard, not too soft. Just keep the memories.... The next gun may be one of those buggers!