Question: What is the impact of mass produced decoration on gun engraving?

[Roger Bleile]

I recently got into an interesting discussion with someone about mass produced gun decoration. By that I, mean those guns with decoration that is done by acid etching, laser etching, roll stamping or a combination of all three. Some even use acid etching that has been detailed with a little hand engraving. Good examples of this are decorated Brownings and Winchesters made in Japan, the Caesar Guerini shotgun line, and the RBL and A-10 line by Galazan.

Now, I understand we are hand engravers and are not into this type of decoration, so what I'm hoping to do is stimulate a discussion among those of us who engrave guns as to the impact of mechanical decoration on the future of hand engraved guns.

I personally think there is a market for such guns that is outside of the market for hand engraved guns. My main objection is not to the work itself but to those who advertise them as "engraved." Also those who advertise the etched and selectively gold plated figures as "inlays." Does this misleading practice diminish the value of hand engraved guns in the eyes of those who don't know any better and when, upon seeing one, think "If that's gun engraving, I don't want any part of it."

I expect that our friend Leonardo's computer aided engraving machine will come up in this discussion so I'll say up front that, I consider the work it does to truly be engraving even if it is machine engraving. Leonardo's machine points to the fact that the future holds the potential of very sophisticated decoration that may be indistinguishable from hand work.

It is my observation that these various mechanical processes can most accurately replicate fine scroll and fine line scenes and figures similar to bulino. By putting so much emphasis on ultra fine work, rather than the more bold work like high relief and flare cut, are we hand engravers setting ourselves up for obsolesence in the eyes of the gun collectors and shooters?

On the high end of things, the top tier of world famous engravers are unlikely to be effected by any form of mass produced decoration but what about everyone else?

I added some images of a few guns that have the type of decoration I am referring to.

Well, that's a lot to chew on but I hope to read some interesting feedback on the subject.



Cheers

Roger

 

[david bain]

Well look at the furniture industry.If you look at it you will see the same ole same ole being display in different stores.not saying they are not attractive,just that everybody is looking at the same thing.Then you have the guy/gal who makes hand made one of a kind. who has the better bragging rights?nobody braggs about the cokie cutter cabinet they have,,just let them have a hand made one of a kind really nicely done hutch,china cabinet,etc..the same thing applys to engraving,I think.maybe I'm just rambling on.I'll stop

 

[Ray Cover]

Artist in all venues have had to deal with this. I can't tell you many times I cringed as an art student when on of "THOSE" commercials came on TV. You know those commercials that advertised the "FINE ART" sale down at the local holiday inn "original sofa sized paintings - nothing over $29.95"

Well here is where I have settled on all that (I ask your forgiveness ahead of time because I know I am gong to step on some toes here with my opinion).

The holiday inn art sale/Elvis on black velvet crowd is always going to be there and there will always be folks marketing to them. As part of marketing they are always going to make their decorations sound like valuable art. This demographic will not be the market for true original works of art costing hundreds or thousands of dollars. These folks just want something pretty to hang over the couch. (now before anyone who does not know me gets miffed at this analogy please understand that my family reunions are like a bad episode of "My Name is Earl". I can call it because I are one! :big grin: )

On the other hand, those buying real quality collectible paintings from serious artist are not going to be tempted away by the holiday inn art sales.

I don't believe the gun or the engraving market in general is any different.

Those who buy real collectible engraving are not interested in buying machine made decoration.

Now I will toss in that I agree with Roger that the marketing can be awful deceptive and we need to bang the pans together as much as we can to keep the market educated to the facts of what is and is not hand engraving. That being said, most experienced collectors take the time to find out he difference.

My 2 cents,

Ray

 

[diandwill]

It seems as though we need to emphasise the "HAND" in hand engraved, and loudly protest when that line is crossed. Also, if the process is etched, it should not be called engraved, and if they use a machine that does dot Bulino, it is not engraved, it is machine dotted.
Sounds like a letter to our Congresspersons is in order, after the election, so the ones in office will be the ones to receive it. I will do that here in Washington State, and ask all others to join me in their respective states.

Will

 

[Andrew Biggs]

To add to what Roger is saying, have a look at some of the 3 dimensionally machined cut/cast guns. You have to look a lot closer now than you used to because the designs and technology are getting better and better.

All I can say is................... Bring it on!!!!!!!

It is catering for a market that was never ours in the first place. Even when mass production meant hand engravers sitting on a stool, with a sandbag for a vise and chipping out several English Scroll trade guns per day.

What it does do is raise awareness of decorated firearms............. or ipods, jewellery, knives or anything. We need this public awareness and there is a synergy between the mass produced market and the custom market.

With public awareness comes more customers to our benches right across the spectrum of the financial classes for custom work. It might be the guy that wants something a bit special on his western action gun, or the middle class collector with not a lot of money but wants a few decent items engraved with the personal touch. The high end collector has always been there for the last few thousand years about the time man started trading with shells!!! There is always a group in our society that is interested in looking beyond the mass produced market and that all starts with awareness..............these people are our customers.

Not all of us are destined for the history books as being great artists of our time.............so the vast majority of us need some well placed custom work and some production work to pay the bills and earn some decent money. So there has to be some commercial sense inbuilt into our way of thinking.


Yip, I agree that the advertising can be a bit teeth grinding some days.............but again, it's not entirely to our cost. Once the differences are explained to most people you can see the interest in their eyes. So in a weird way the mass producing, machine cutting manufacturers are helping to spread the name of hand engraving.

The mass production competition also helps to motivate us to lift our game and get better at what we do.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[BrianPowley]

I remember 10+ years ago,when I saw the first digital camera photographs and proudly exclaimed, "They'll NEVER replace film"
Little did I know that it wasn't as much bad digital cameras, as it was bad printers (or a combination of both).
I have eaten those words many times over the past 10 years.
I don't think a Rolls Royce is that much superior than a Buick Park Avenue in respect to handling, noise, comfort, etc.,etc. but the Rolls Royce is a hand made car and the fit and finish is self evident and something you just won't find on a production line auto. They each have their own market.
Decorations on firearms will almost always get labeled as engraving to the uneducated. The technology for better quality machine engraving will evolve because there is a demand for it.
Almost anyone can tell the difference (hand vs. machine) as we speak. It might be a little tougher in the near future.
Will we become obsolete???? That's a darn good question Roger!

 

[Christopher Malouf]

To Arms!! To Arms!! ... Win one for the whoever!!! We'll show them infernal machines!!! LOL!!

I'm certain Roger is dreading the possibility that I might respond to this ... and with good reason. The heavy bias toward gun engraving should not disillusion folks into believing this only happens in the gun world. It doesn't. It happens with EVERYTHING that is mass produced.


Sorry Andrew buddy ... the upbeat and overly positive drivel just made me blow chunks on my keyboard .. LOL!!

Seriously ... the only awareness being raised is the level of consumer ignorance. For most, they don't know the difference between hand and machine work. For those that do, most of them don't know the difference between quality hand engraving and cheap/hack work.

The analogy of the Holiday Inn art collector is spot on. Who cares about those "collectors". Same goes for the knife aficionado who is looking for the 99 piece Katana and tactical folder set on the Knife Show for $99 bucks (three easy flexpays of $33 bucks LOL)

As an engraver who has engraved everything/anything that has come across my bench, I can tell you that the long term survival and success of hand engraving depends entirely upon those who create the custom pieces which are worthy of our valuable time. That goes for motorcycles, custom built guns, custom made jewelry and hand crafted, custom made knives. That also includes the professional restorations of things that were once produced during this nation's best years of home-grown manufacturing.

Without those craftsmen/artisans, we would be inheriting a shrinking market of factory made items whose company shareholders are only interested in profiting off items which can made as cheaply as possible.

Whatever they choose to pass off their laser etched work as, it is moot.
The client who has a custom knife, ring, or rifle made already KNOWS what hand engraving is and that's all that matters.

Google "Hand Engraving" and you get everything including the Dremel experts. Our job should not be to take on educating the masses but to show the curious and interested the differences between quality engraving vs. poor engraving and show them how to value such hand engraving accordingly.

My website is undergoing an overhaul at the moment and when it is done, it will include an "education" section specifically to show the interested buyer how much blood and sweat goes into what we do. It is my hope to instill a sense of value into that person's mind .... that what they are paying for is an artisan's skill and time worth every penny.


Take care,

Chris

 

[monk]

well, you "get what you pay for". if you're stupid enough (maybe just uninformed enough) to get something that isn't quite what what it was advertized to be, not quite what you thought it was, upon whose shoulders does the blame go ? we are living in an age of instant info retrieval. no reason for anyone to be misinformed about any purchase they make. most phones that will fit in your t shirt pocket these days will get you any information you want on anything.

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Sorry Andrew buddy ... the upbeat and overly positive drivel just made me blow chunks on my keyboard .. LOL!!

Hey Chris........I can't get that picture out of my head. I'm in a warm safe place, I'm in a warm safe place, I'm in a warm safe place

Cheers
Andrew

 

[DakotaDocMartin]

It all depends on perspecitve...

There will always be people who know fine art and have the money to afford to pay for it. And, there will always be the masses of people that don't have the money but wish for some nice things they can afford.

Likewise, there will always be fine artists who eek out a living doing what they love because they love it foremost. And there will always be those who fill the need of the masses.

It's very much true: You can sell to the rich and live with the masses. Or, you can sell to the masses and live with the rich.

As Ray and Christopher mentioned about the mass produced paintings... of course they are crap. But, there is a larger market for them.

My uncle's brother in law, a Chinese guy from California, was the guy that owned the company that produced those mass produced oil paintings. He hired a bunch of German "artists" to paint the same paintings over and over again by hand. He sold so many of them he had to start up his own frame molding factory to produce the frames. And, they went through literally train loads of wood to make them. He later branched off into making clocks with cheap battery operated quartz movements. All in all he became a filthy rich multi-millionaire selling to the masses. None of it was "real" art.

There's more money to be made in the long run selling etched and gold plated guns than there will ever be selling hand engraved works of art. If you want to get rich... it won't come from hand engraving.

It's good there are artists who do their work because of the love of their art. :thumbs up:

 

[Paul Chung]

I know a 'very reputable' high end english gunmaker going down the route of laser/machine engraving. They are already doing it with their lower end model which is part lasered and finished off by hand and claiming it to be hand engraved in various magazines and shooting press.
I also know they have copied a certain members sons work on here recently by laser at a fraction of the cost. Whether they choose to tell the customer this fact remains to be seen. Doesn't this practice also infringe on copyright?
At this present moment in time there are people who will always appreciate hand made objects but and it's keeping me in work but who knows what the market will be like in 10 years time.
WIll they be willing to pay £60K-£70K for something that is 80% machine made that used to be 100% hand made?
Maybe the way forward is to write a letter of authentication with every piece of work in the future as a way of gaurantee to the customer that it is hand engraved to keep up the interest in this art.
Ok rant over lol!

 

[Mike Cirelli]

Well there's an organization called FEGA, that could possibly have a strong voice maybe even get some help from the NRA in Washington. It may sound nuts but organizations do it every day. Organizing a legal verbal descriptions to avoid misrepresentation of products. I can remember when jewelry mfgs didn't have to make their gold exactly what is was marked. They were aloud to be under karat, sometimes by as much as 2 karat. Now it's illegal.

 

[Barry Lee Hands]

The impact? Companies who engrave guns will make more money.
After all, it is engraving companies who came up with this.
I think anything that promotes the manufacture and sales of Firearms is a good thing
We are at the top of the Pyramid, and every Pyramid needs a base.
The basic problem for Gun Engravers is the decline in interest in hunting, lowered hunting lisence sales lead to lower entry level gun sales which lead to lower numbers of entry level shooters who will climb the ladder of success and become high end gun buyers.

If you want to help Gun Engraving, teach a kid to shoot safely, teach a kid to hunt, and support youth firearm programs wherever and whenever you can.

 

[BrianPowley]

If you want to help Gun Engraving, teach a kid to shoot safely, teach a kid to hunt, and support youth firearm programs wherever and whenever you can.

I can't find one thing wrong with this statement...Well said my friend!!

 

[tonytigerhk45]

When I was in engraving school, I had someone want to know how much I would charge for engraving a deer scene on a rifle both sides and re-blue it. I told him 500.00$ and before I explained how much work would go into it with hand polishing and cutting and such. He told me that he could get one at the store with it already on there for that much, I told him to buy two. One for him and one for me and I'd pay him for it. Never heard back from him. So the public is miss informed when it comes to hand engraving they think that everything is done by a machine and that a dremel tool is what we use to engrave it with. And most of them have the Wal-mart mentality of cheaper is better and hand work is not something they want to pay for. But the one's that do buy or pay for your work appreciates it, to their utmost hearts content and will tell everyone about it.

 

[mitch]

DakotaDoc:

Would you please stop posting everything in bold type? Like writing in all CAPITAL LETTERS, it reads like you're shouting and adds nothing positive to your message. In fact, for many it gives the negative impression that the content of your comment can't carry its own weight and thus requires the added implied authority of a booming, stentorian voice (and it's kinda rude...).

Thanks,
Mitch

 

[Marcus Hunt]

My two penny worth.... There has been rolled engraving , etching and laser engraving for donkeys years on low end guns. Some people, no matter how much they like and aspire to hand engraving on their weapons will not be able to afford it and would like some sort of decoration on their guns. However, there are those who also want a one of a kind (and yes, even the thousands of guns produced in the London and Birmingham trades that used the same/similar patterns are all unique) and for them nothing else will do.

What really annoys me though is when the magazine article writers get hold of a cheap gun and "ooooh" and "arrrrrrgh" over it as if it's a top of the range weapon. They oogey over the engraving even though it's crap so what's the poor unenlightened shooter supposed to think? They think the article writer is an expert in the field so if they say something's good, surely it must be mustn't it?

I am happy to engrave most things but to be honest, it doesn't make economic sense to hand engrave cheap guns nowadays.

Unlike Paul I won't beat around the bush. When a company with such a high reputation for quality as Purdey's start making a "cheap" (??? have you seen the price of it!) sporting model and then have it laser engraved it won't take long before all the serious aficionados move elsewhere. They should have stuck with minimal, hand engraving on this model in my view. To laser engrave a "Purdey" is sacrilege in my view. Virtually everyone I know laughs at it, and that's not what you want when you're at the top of your field. But I did see their damascus gun at the CLA Game Fair and that was gorgeous!

 

[Christopher Malouf]

Hey Andrew .... there weren't really any chunks .... just Guinness beer LOL!!

-----

Doc,

It's very much true: You can sell to the rich and live with the masses. Or, you can sell to the masses and live with the rich.

It all depends on whether or not an engraver chooses to accurately value his/her work.

By not valuing one's work, that engraver contributes to diminishing the expectation that hand engraving adds value. It is painful to see the veteran engravers in this field not charging enough for their work and then boasting about engraving being a "labor of love" 'cause you won't get rich at it. The fact that I won't get rich at it is simply because knowledgeable customers/dealers have an expectation set by my predecessors. A difficult thing to break through which will take many years. I'm extremely disenchanted to learn that most knife engraving works out to about $2000-$3000 per month. That sucks. Firearms aren't much better.

-------------------

Someone once said on this forum that engravers make less now than they did 20 years ago. The price charged hasn't increased much but the cost of living has.

Aside from the decreasing supply of items actually worthy of hand engraving, what will eventually KILL hand engraving as a viable, full-time career is the inability to increase price range norms.

Quality guns will eventually disappear and Pacific rim reproductions will dominate, the knife market may never recover unless an entirely new generation of collectors with disposable income suddenly appears. It will probably take a good 10 years before all areas/markets normalize.

What has always held value (both intrinsic and perceived) is jewelry. This type of engraving will always be around and will continue to be the best paid engraving work simply because 100% to 300% markups are the norm and intrinsic value generally goes up. Long after gun or knife engraving has been relegated to the individual with full-time day jobs in completely unrelated fields, the full-time, freelance jewelry engraver will be making a comfortable living.

A recession always bring about some interesting observations ... firearm engravers scrambling to diversify (and feel ashamed to admit it) LOL!!.

 

[pilkguns]

The impact? Companies who engrave guns will make more money.
After all, it is engraving companies who came up with this.
I think anything that promotes the manufacture and sales of Firearms is a good thing
We are at the top of the Pyramid, and every Pyramid needs a base.
The basic problem for Gun Engravers is the decline in interest in hunting, lowered hunting lisence sales lead to lower entry level gun sales which lead to lower numbers of entry level shooters who will climb the ladder of success and become high end gun buyers.

If you want to help Gun Engraving, teach a kid to shoot safely, teach a kid to hunt, and support youth firearm programs wherever and whenever you can.

Bravo Barry,
Amen to all of this, especially the last. It's basically why I am more in the youth airgun business than an engraver these days, I basically see it as the best way to provide the non-shooting public a postive experience with guns and better provide for the future of our Second Amendment rights.

 

[richard hall]

Hey Chris, was waiting for you to respond to this thread, again you didnt let me down !!! I think all engravers should buy up the low end air-rifles off of Scott, engrave them, sell it all off quickly, buy a fishing boat, and live like Joseph....Here we are, complaining, when we should have stepped up to the bat, when they first brought up the idea, of a " global economy ".. All of our work has been farmed out, I never thought the day would come when the need for machinists wasnt there anylonger, but, its happened in my lifetime.. Maybe we need to build everything [ in-house ] by our own hands, that people need or want, to stay afoat, custom knives, jewerly, braclets, that way we could pass our costs on alot easier. I dont have answers to what is going on, but all of us, really need to put our heads together.. Educating the masses isnt working, as they think with their wallets and trying to hang onto thier homes at the same time...