Basic 'rules' of scrollwork

[CRW]

Marcus.
I agree with you 100%. When I post something for critique, I want true critique from the ones who are qualified. Well meaning compliments from grandma and friends will be of little value in helping a person to improve his skills. Some of the most helpful people on this forum are the most honest in evaluating a piece of work. Marty, Yourself , Ron smith, Roger , and Rex are some of the ones who's opinion I value the most because of that honesty. Thanks for putting it like it is. I for one don't need a friend I need a teacher. Your real friends will tell you the truth.

Jerry, I agree with every word you said. When I ask for critique, I really mean it, and I want the truth. I really value what these people say to me. Atta-boys are fine, but tell it like it is, be honest, tell me if I am progressing or not, if it is bad then I will go back to the drawing board, and my feelings or ego will not be hurt in the least.
Marcus, This has been one of the most interesting threads, Thanks so much for starting it.

 

[Christopher Malouf]

Hi Ron,

I have learned a great deal since I first posted work on this site a year ago. Most of all, I have learned embarrassment and humility. Not embarrassment of posting my work, but being guilty of posting about the things I do not know and sometimes of utter meaningless nonsense. Soooo, I post my work to the gallery and do my best to keep my mouth shut unless I know I have something that is both correct and contributory. What I know to be correct is what I have experienced along this never ending road of personal betterment. I am, in many cases, speaking of myself .... maybe somewhat cryptically at times.

Ron, you are one of the few engravers that I consider to be a great aspiration to my work. You say what you do and you mean what you say. As I lurk in "invisible mode" on this forum, very few posts garnish my undivided attention as yours consistently do. It all has to do with connecting with a fellow artist through all of his works and writings. There are also engravers I look to for specific areas of work for which I would be incomplete without.

That brings me to Weldon's comment on "taking what we need". He is exactly right. The beginner does know what he needs and can be easily confused by all of the input by the "gurus" and "non-gurus". In my first post, I stated "conflicting and/or confusing" information but never said "wrong". I am not qualified to make that judgement. In time, that engraver will develop a connection with another engraver, his work, his choice of canvasses or simply even something that makes him identify with the logic behind the words and critique over those of others. That new engraver can either mimmick a style or move on to develop his own. I don't know what it is that drives us. As just about everything you have said does illustrate that you see what I see, I will also clarify that I am in no way attempting to diminish the efforts of anyone who teaches or place the blame of mediocrity on anyone other than the student.

Personally, as an under-achiever (and always voted least likely to succeed ), I find that being in competition with myself is more than enough. It's finding the direction to take me where I want to be that has been most difficult. I believe I've finally found it. In being highly selective as to what advice I take in, I had stopped posting my work completely on both forums for a little while. I don't even ask questions anymore ... I research instead. I know there are folks who enjoy seeing and studying my work as I have recieved their e-mails. Do I not post for fear of being percieved as a glory seeker and deny the few that truly enjoy and learn from it or do I post and let the critics continue to think what they will of me?

All of that I am is put forth through my work and all I ask is that I am fairly judged. When I post again, it is not for the popularity contest. For those that choose to ignore me, it is of no consequence for I have chosen not to learn from them.

One thing's for certain, the ability to learn the basics of scroll all the way to ornamental scroll design is within everyone's ability. That is because art can be learned. We are given tests in grade school ... those are false indicators but enough of a reason for teachers and parents to brainwash us that artists live shoeless under a bridge while the mathematicians and scientists are busy getting rich building the world.

Time, pressure, the willingness to succeed and sometimes a little kick in the butt from the mentor you believe and trust in. Git r done.

All my respect,

Chris

 

[Gemsetterchris]

There is a difference between posting a pic of a latest effort and asking specifically for a critique.
A "looking good" or "nice one" is fine even if it is totally wrong professionally.
I think most know how to "read" responses and more specifically from whom.

Too much critique from the big boys will put people off posting their efforts unless they are really trying to learn correctly.
Some maybe doing this for pleasure and know that they will never make it to the elite class.
Maybe a specific critique area of the forum or add the word in the title for those that want a real honest professional opinion, and the have a go brigade can still get there "good effort mate :thumbs up:" response to keep them interested..
Still, yes it is a great idea to get books and read the rules of design first no matter what.

Not very nice to say sorry mate thats totally crap is it! i`ve commented a "good job" sometimes because i am relating their result to my beginners scratching and considered it as such compared to what i can`t do.
I would not dare try to offer advice though (unless asked about stone setting).

Again, getting to know names of the pros and those who have learnt well lately "Arnaud" for example i would take note of advice from, those that might say "good effort" give the encouragement to try again.

 

[John B.]

Right on, Gemsetterchris. I'm with you.

 

[Peter E]

A lot of truthful and accurate information has been posted in this thread.

I thank you Marcus, as you do tell it like it is, and I appreciate that.

Additionally, in reading the "rules" I just realized that I broke one! I had a larger scroll growing out of a smaller one on a knife I engraved recently

 

[fegarex]

Gemsetterchris,
My post have read different than what I meant. I see nothing wrong with posting a latest effort for "show and tell" so to speak. I have done this myself.
I think Sam just solved the problem by adding another heading.....
For those seeking critique can get it.

 

[Marcus Hunt]

Wow, I didn't expect this response!!! Thanks guys for the compliments and support. I wasn't seeking this, I was only trying to explain things as I saw it and it was my personal opinion, that's all.

I post pictures of my stuff rather like Rex does. I'm not seeking praise but hope that in some way it might inspire or help someone. This is not an easy skill to learn and only hard work and study will get you anywhere.

Just thinking on your "gurus" comments Chris, I think much of what you says is valid. However, there is often more than one way to skin a cat. Different folks may each have equally valid ways of approaching something that gets the same result, and I agree it can be confusing. Often I won't add to a thread (even though I might like to) if there are some experienced engravers already giving tips for this very reason.

There are some outstanding engravers who haven't had a lot of years engraving under their belts. Andrew Biggs is one of them. On the old knife embellishment forum, I gave Andrew a little advice but most of his guidance came for John Barraclough. I'm sure John will agree with me how great it is to see how Andrew has taken and worked with that guidance to become a truly great engraver and artist. When I first met John and asked him how he felt about it the look in his eyes said it all. Pride and sheer joy! That is how a true teacher feels when his student exceeds. Think of how an Olympic coach must feel when their athlete wins gold. The coach could never win gold but neither could the athlete without a good coach.

If you ever get the chance to attend a Grand Masters' weekend Chris do so. Engravers from all over the globe sharing ideas on a level which is inconceivable. And making friends on a scale I'd never dreamt of! No one knows it all. I certainly don't! And even if an idea doesn't necessarily work for you, it can often act as a catalyst to find the way that does work for you. I never used an 80º or 110º bulino tool before but I am now.

Gemsetterchris, I see where you're coming from and I agree to a certain extent. By all means beginners' post a picture, I actively encourage that. But to do so just to receive compliments is crass. A fair comment should be expected and if this includes some pointers to help someone improve their work what could be fairer? I've be on here since the beginning of the Cafe and I've never seen anyone post a comment that someone's work is crap. For too long there has been crap engraving out in the world and if we want fair recompense for our efforts we have to offer the best we can. (I'm going to photograph a gun I have in the workshop at the moment and post it. If you want to see what BAD engraving looks like this has to be the worst I've ever seen!) Even if it's only someone engraving for their own pleasure, do they not want to do the best they can? A "good effort" is necessary but sometimes this can be misconstrued because a "good effort" from you might carry as much weight in a Newbies eyes as one from Sam or John B or Lee for example. That "good effort" might be interpreted as "Oh, I'm doing alright then! I'm on the right track so I'll just carry on doing what I'm doing." When what they need is "Good effort, but if you took this approach and changed the way you did that, that 'good effort' would become 'Great effort'." Also, you've proved my point exactly; Arnaud is a great guy and like Andrew he is making outstanding gestures to further his engraving skills but although he's a jeweller he is learning engraving himself so he's possibly not got the most experience in this field for you to take the best advice there is from. Saying that, he often makes extremely good and candid critiques which shows he has learned and understood. Now as regards other skills he has, for example using Illustrator, I'm learning from him! This is what makes the forum so great.

Scott, I love your 10 Commandments. Can I have your permission to replicate and use this?

Sam, great idea to have a new heading for those seeking critique.

This was only supposed to be about 'basic rules of scrollwork'!!!!

 

[KCSteve]

Marcus

You don't often post these sorts of threads but when you do they always get this sort of response.

That's because they should.

You've worked long and hard to get to where you are, and with your 'inherited' knowledge odds are extremely good that when you put effort into one of these posts it will contain important information.

When I post pictures of my work I generally do so for two reasons:
1) Markers along my way. I don't know how far up this mountain I'll get but it's good to be able to go back and see I've at least made some progress.

2) Encouragement for others near my level. As discussed in one of your previous threads, sometimes folks feel a little intimidated by the master works posted here. I don't because I take them in the way I believe most of them are intended - a combination of "well, here's what I've been doing lately" and "here's what you can do if keep practicing".

I think the new Critique heading will help out. Now the people just posting 'update' type pictures shouldn't worry they'll get critiqued (I love it - tells me I'm good enough to critique) and the people looking for constructive feedback won't have to sort through too many attaboys.

I critique what I can, when I can. I never touched a graver before 2007 so even when I can see something seems off (to me) I can't always articulate it. And when you, or Andrew or one of the others is already helping someone you've generally already covered what I could have added.

Summer is coming and that's when I get a little more time to engrave so you can expect to start seeing more postings from me seeking feedback.

 

[John B.]

Marcus, thank you for the mention and kind words my friend.
But I must clear up a couple of things regarding Andrew and me and our early connections. You give me far too much credit.
The only thing I can take any credit for is helping Andrew with a few tools, a little technique and a couple of basic outlines.
Yes, at first Andrew sent me all his designs and practice for critique.
In a couple of months I was amazed at how much he had absorbed from close observation and study of the engraving world outside of any of my input.
If you ask him I'm sure he will back me up on this. After a very short time I could see his own design knowledge, style, skill and balance develop to the point where I thought more critique from me was counter productive.
His design skill was equal or better than mine.
It was simply time to step back and enjoy seeing him blossom and grow to his potential. That's how it has been since that time.

If I have any skill at all in teaching it is an ability to recognize early potential in a begginer and that is what I saw in Andrew from his first days.
The only credit due me is putting his foot on the second step of the ladder.
He took the first and most important step himself by reaching out for answers, being open to guidance and critique. Many are not and it's hard to judge who is.
Marcus, you know first hand that many students can exceed their teacher.
Just as your dear Dad did in his training with Mr. Kell.
And I take nothing away from Mr. Kell, a great engraver.
After him your Dad had a lot of frontiers to explore and introduce to the world.
Andrew has exceed me. Without reducing me, just as your Dad did with Mr. Kell.
I believe most good, well intentioned teachers take joy in seeing their students do well.
And that my friend was the joy you saw in my eyes when we talked of Andrew.
No doubt you father/teacher feels the same pride and joy seeing your skill.

Thank you for all the great posts. You say what you mean and get people thinking.
Best regards and respect.

 

[pilkguns]

Scott, I love your 10 Commandments. Can I have your permission to replicate and use this?

QUOTE]

Sure Marcus, you know it!

John B, very well said. You are the man!!!!

 

[Gemsetterchris]

Looks like we might have to start signing a declaration stating that we have read and understood fully Rons books before posting any pics.:big grin:
My copy of the basic book is on order...

 

[Kevin P.]

Ron, I have "Drawing & Understanding Scroll Designs","More on Scroll Design" and "Advanced Drawing of Scrolls" which I periodically dip into to try to improve my design skills. My regret is that I didn't have the opportunity to take a class from you.
Stay well.
Kevin P.

 

[Kevin P.]

". . . within my class at GRS I try to get my students to understand how to design a piece of work. I can't speak for other instructors but I'm sure they do too. It's important for novices to know why we try to get you to do something in a particular way and why we offer advice on the forum. It's up to you whether or not you work with said advice but when you do, and when you are fully acquainted with the fundamental rules, in no time you'll be designing your own stuff in your own style and will have the confidence to know it look right even if it breaks or bends the 'rules'."

This statement makes me wish I could take your class. If you do as you say you're a rare teacher.
I, for one, appreciate your directness in saying what's on your mind.
Kevin P.
__________________

 

[FANCYGUN]

Kevin
Techniques can be taught to some extent depending on the student. The hard part is getting your student to actually think. That's when the techniques that are taught take flight.
I once had an engraver who was asking me to critique his work again and again constantly make the same layout and design mistake over and over again. His explanation for this was "isn't art supposed to be breaking the rules?". My answer to him was.."You have to understand the rules first, then you can understand how to break them"

 

[Marcus Hunt]

You've put it perfectly, Marty. Picasso, for example, was actually superb draftsman and could draw and paint "properly" (for want of a better word) before he went into his cubism stage. Because he'd actually proved himself as an artist his wacky ventures were excepted. I doubt very much he would have been if he'd started off with the weird stuff.

As a student engraver you need to serve your time first and accept and understand what you are being taught. Once you are full conversant you can try different ideas knowing that they will be aesthetically pleasing.

Kevin, one of the difficulties is the time limit of a class. Some guys pick up and understand the design fundamentals easily. Others may struggle but that is an unfortunate fact of life. What, hopefully, my all students go away with is sufficient knowledge so that they can progress on their own, and at their own speed knowing they have a sound foundation to act upon. I am trying to impart in 5 days what it took me many years to learn. But one thing's for sure, learning to cut English scroll is just one part of the class but it's no good if you can't go away and make your own designs in which to use it.

 

[Sam]

I would add that learning to draw scrolls isn't something that can be learned in a few easy steps. We can learn some of the fundamentals and dos and don'ts but, but the best designers have spent a lifetime of continuous study of the subject. Can you learn to be a good or great designer in a one-week class? Not any more than you can learn to be a good or great musician in one week of study. You'll get the design fundamentals which will jump start you big time, but it doesn't end there and you don't walk away producing layouts like your heros. Those who dedicate themselves to study and spend a lot of time drawing are the ones who rise to the top.

 

[FANCYGUN]

Marcus
I am always amazed at how good of a classical artist Salvador Dali was. But you can see this come through in is more well known works if you study them closely.
Marty

 

[ddushane]

Marcus, Thank you for the post, I'm sitting here with my head ducked and tail between my legs somewhat. I'm guilty of a lot of things you spoke of, I probably post too many attaboy’s myself, but when I see something I like, I usually comment on it, and I for one am no one to critique anothers work, I leave that for you guys that are our teachers and guides. I do post on occasion and to think of it, I don’t can’t really remember asking for critique or constructive criticism. But that is what I would like from those of you that are in a place to teach us beginners. I’m trying to get better at layout and constantly look at others work for guidance, I’m constantly going through Ron’s book to get better at layout. I don’t want to copy others work but I do get a lot of inspiration from it. I want to come up with my own style and I’m always drawing like Ron and so many others advise. I agree with all that you said in your original post. I’m hear to learn, I’m also here to enjoy everyone’s beautiful engraving but mostly to learn how to become a master engraver, I won’t be satisfied with mediocrity and I won’t quit trying to learn. It may take forever but like Ron said earlier, & I’m paraphrasing, My endeavor is to learn in all things of life and always want to grow in all that I do. And you guys help more than you’ll ever know.

I thank you for your honesty and straight forwardness. We do not have enough of that in our world today and too many folks are wanting to give all the kids playing ball a trophy instead of the Gold, Silver, and Bronze for 1st, 2nd, & 3rd and let the others learn to deal with defeat so they can go back to the drawing board or practice field and become better. If we will allow it, failure will make us grow and become something we are not. It will help us grow in every way and lead others that God has placed in our lives to lead & teach. I hope I judge myself honestly & soberly. I want to be a lot better than I am, I want my work to someday be up there with the Sam Alfano’s and Phil Coggan’s of the world. There are Soooo many of you guys that I admire, I just kept it to a couple so you’d get my point, not to leave anyone of you greats out But the only way to learn is to hear honesty from you guys, I read the comments that yall say on others work as well and try to learn from it because I find myself doing the same things, so when yall are chewing on them, your chewing on me as well but that’s how we learn. A little donkey BBQ won’t hurt anyone.

So Marcus thanks for this thead, and thanks to everyone else that commented, it helps one get a good perspective on things.

Dwayne

 

[Marcus Hunt]

Dwayne, I'm going to aim this observation at you coz you brought it up but please don't take offense coz there are lots like you out there.

You say you don't want to copy and want to come up with your own style. I say, if you are at an early stage of your engraving career COPY!!! Don't for Pete's sake get so hung up on "I must be unique, I must have my own style!" Get good designs and copy them. GRS started producing laser etched bits and bobs for that reason. It's better to cut a good design poorly than cut a bad design well at the beginning of your engraving career.

I had 8 people in my class last year all cutting the same designs and we had 8 different results (9 including mine). If you copy something i guarantee you will not be able to replicate it fully (unless you're capable of forgery and in that case you wouldn't be here). You will cut it in your own unique way, guaranteed. This is where developing your own style begins, not with some trumped up idea in your head.

What I'm trying to say is this is a lifelong learning process and it doesn't matter which part of your life you decided to start. But wherever you start you MUST start at the beginning. You must do all the crappy stuff that EVERY apprentice engraver has done throughout history and just because you've got fancy modern, go faster, superdooper tools it DOES NOT NEGATE THIS PROCESS. So copy til you're sick of it and then copy some more. Copy my scrolls, copy Sam's, copy Marty's, copy Phil's, copy Chris' duck, copy whatever takes your imagination and gradually you'll see that your "copying" is developing into something unique. Something within it will be your signature and only when you see this starting to develop will you know that you don't have to come up with your own style as it will already be there.

I am not a "guru", I'm a professional engraver who wishes to share some of the stuff he does with the engraving community. I do not know everything to do with engraving. No one does. I too see work by other engravers on here and am wowed by some of it. Somehow I might try to incorporate something I like by another into my own style. I don't 'copy' but may use the idea. This is something that happens with engravers not only in Europe but now all over the world. Case in point, Lee's 'spaghetti' gun. Scroll developed by the Italians and now used by an American engraver. He didn't copy the design but used the elements to come up with his own take on that style.

Keep cutting and have fun.

 

[Roger Keagle]

Marcus, you have hit a note with me with your last post...after trying for over 20 years to be unique, I am at last ready to copy ! I could have saved myself a ton of greef if I had done this years ago...stuborn I would guess.

After seeing what is being done by all you guys I am ashamed to share my humble efforts, but will swallow my pride to learn more and get better, it is never too late to learn after all.

My head is swiming with ideas on how to proceed...and this is what this form has done for me. I have been in a dead zone for the past few years, doing the same old thing, and that is not good enough !

Thank you for all you have given in time and thought to this thread, should be required reading for all new chums and old alike...

My two cents is really only worth about 1.7 cents on the current rate of exchange.

Roger