Pantograph question

[KCSteve]

Ok, the ever-indulgent wife saw the nifty plaque I got from Jim Sackett as my 'Engraving in the Hat'.

One of the things she liked on it was the ever-so-perfect lettering. I explained that Jim is lucky enough to have a pantograph to do the lettering.

So, now she's thinking that I should have one.

Since she is so ever-indulgent I need advice from you experienced guys - what's the best bang for the buck and where do I get it?

PepeTools hasn't turned on my account yet (got sucked into them in the thread on rolling mills) but Rio Grande has their machine for a good price. The other common choice seems to be the 'Presidium' (sp?) unit that's $10 cheaper. She's leery of used machines unless we can get them from a known good source - my background is as a programmer and there's an old joke: "How many programmers does it take to change a light bulb? Answer: None - it's a hardware problem." She'd prefer I keep my scar additions to the minimum required.

I have limited space to store and set up so size is also a small consideration but mostly she wants something that will do a good job and be as useful as it can be.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Jim Sackett]

Hi Steve

My New Hermes engraving machine is about 25'x22' and 23 'high. It is designed to set up on a table or bench. Its quite heavy. Not many working parts not much to ware out. Go to Gravograph.com once there type in pantograph.

The Cronite Company has another type for scratching acid resist off plates for etching. It doesn't plow as deep as the Hermes but is good for layout work.

Glad your boss liked the plate.

Jim Sackett

 

[Jim Sackett]

ps Scar additions? Does that mean your doing some real hand engraving?

Jim

 

[Marcus Hunt]

Steve, take the time and learn to letter properly by hand. There is nothing in the machine world that can hold a light to it. Yeah, machine engraved lettering might be perfect but so what? Where's the soul? It will just be like a million other machine engraved letters if you go this route. Engraving lettering is one of the toughest things to do because everyone knows what it should look like. Make a mistake with a scroll and not everyone will be able to pick it up. Engrave letters out of true though and everyone can see if it's wonky. That said, it is worth the time and effort to perfect and the results are fabulous. If you want to go the "lazy man's" route though, get a machine.

Here's a tip: if you're limited for space and cost is an issue, learn to engrave lettering by hand!

 

[Sam]

I agree with Marcus. Diligent study and practice of lettering is very rewarding and will make you a better engraver. Do you have a need mechanical engraving? It certainly has its place, such as trophy shops, for signs and badges, etc, but as Marcus pointed out, it's flat and lifeless. Perfect, yes, but without character and soul. / ~Sam

 

[Robert Morales]

Steve, I'm with Marcus and Sam on this one. But, the best bang for the buck is USED! I happened upon a New Hermes M3, no power, from a friend with a jewelry store. I couldn't believe what they go for new. If that doesn't kill ya' wait till you see what fonts go for! I got three fonts with mine, Large interlocking monogram, small script, small straight type. I used it as a layout and went back over it with the graver, it got old soon, I was limited by the fonts. I've since used it for pattern transfer and grid layout successfully though.

 

[Andrew Biggs]

HI Steve

I think you're just a tool junkie!!!

Marcus and Sam are right.............lettering is a skill that is well learnt. The Meeks book and the Jewelery Engravers manual explain it well. So do the old Speedball books. There are also any number of good basic lettering books on the market. The simpiler the better. One good style from each catergory will serve you well. Script, Roman, Old English and block (Sans Serif) Everything else is just a variation of those styles.

Rod Cameron had a really cool way of doing it. He scanned and transferred the lettering page from the Meeks book and cut it following the direction of the arrows etc.

Start big, say 6mm (1/4 inch) and work your way down. Try a computer font like Edwardian Script which is very nice as well. Just be cautious of the spacing as computer fonts have auto kerning (spacing) which are not always desirable.

I've been a signwriter for nearly 30 years now and lettering is still my primary job. Computer cut lettering and digital printing etc still can't hold a candle to well done hand lettering. With hand lettering you can also bend it to the shape and surface required, add flourishes and generally manipulate it to a desired space and still make it look good. When Marcus and Sam talk about hand lettering having a soul they are quite correct.

Pantograph indeed.................wash your mouth out!!!!

Cheers
Andrew

 

[ED DELORGE]

Hello Steve, I agree with all of the above, BUT, one must consider your needs. If you have a open door engraving business, you need a pentagraph machine. Period! As pointed out in the Book, Engraving on Precious metals, the engraving shop has to be able to do it all, hand engraving and machine engraving. There are too many little jobs that come through the door that the customer is willing to pay a reasonable fee to have done, that can easily be done quickly with your machine, but if they insist on hand engraving then the difference in price should be explained to the customer.

The Book I am refering to was written by three master engravers from England, each specializing in different methods of engraving and stays on my work bench continiously. By the way this book was Lynton McKinzeys favorite book also.

Last thought, There are a lot of good used machines out there. I have auctually had two of them given to me. Call around to your local jewelery stores, dont be suprised if they have an old smaller machine back in storage they will sell for a song.

Good Luck

Ed

 

[KCSteve]

Thanks guys, keep it coming!

No actual 'hand' engraving yet but we'll just say I have a strong tendency to make a blood sacrifice whenever I work on something.

I agree that hand lettering is better and it's one of the things I'm currently working on. We had already, in fact, discussed the fact that machine cut lettering lacks soul and that I might wind up using it more for layout / transfer than lettering. But the ever-indulgent wife is also a bit of a tool junkie so it's hard to resist.

So is the current consensus that the best thing is to check around with local jewelers then?

 

[Ron Smith]

Insights and room for discussion
:
I draw my own lettering, and I bet I can have it on and engraved just about as fast as you can set up a machine and scribe it on so you can engrave it.

Not knocking your methods Jim, just trying to show the value of learning to draw. The machine overwhelms the hand engraver on repetative projects, but falls behind on one of a kind pieces. It will allow you to do good lettering while you are learning to draw however, but you can do the same thing with the computer if you can find the fonts. But fonts don't do very good monograms and mechanical spacing is not nearly as good as visual spacing for balance except on certain font styles and just standard lettering styles (block and script). It is very gratifying to be able to do beautiful script by hand.

The machine is great for volume work.

 

[Sam]

E.C. Prudhomme had a couple of pantographs in his shop which were used for trophy work, etc. He had an employee that did nothing but machine engraving, and he was good at it. But the REAL lettering that was done on jewelry, guns, silverware, etc, was hand-cut by Prudhomme himself.

 

[Ron Smith]

Having a machine in your shop is good if you don't mind giving your time to run it, but like Sam said, if you have an employee, this is ideal as the machine is relatively easy to learn.

I started engraving on one when I first began in the trade. It was part of the gopher training I think, and it brought in extra money. It is a good means to keep an employee busy to earn his own pay, and it fulfills a nitch that is relatively easy money. Porbably will pay you better than hand work if you have a lot of trophy, repetative work, so it is very useful in the occupational engravers shop that needs a volume of work. It is also the means of being able to hire another to help you in your shop, but once they learn, they might fly the coop. As I said, it is relatively easy to learn, so it would be a good idea to be looking for a replacement after about two years of training a novice. They tend to think they are engravers after about that much time and go their own way. It depends on what you are trying to do, and if you are trying to build a successful business of engraving, it can be and asset, or it can be a burden to the custom hand engraver to keep it busy, but that is just business. You do what you have to to make it work.

 

[Joe]

I had very little interest in lettering but took the course at GRS because, at the time, there was little else offered for my skill level. Mike Dubber taught the class admirable. Upon completion of that week's training, I was able to engrave letters that you would not enjoy viewing. But I practiced at home and practiced. I'm sure that I letter more than anything else, now. I'm familier with the machine letters and can be certain that creation is rather found in hand cut letters. We're creators, so, isn't that the point.
Mike Dubber, if you're reading this, thank you very much.

 

[monk]

GET in touch with bob laird in dresher, pa 215-620-6784 or 215-884-8198 at laird equipment.
he sells used nh pantos. they are tough machines and bob is an honest salesman. he will sell you what you need for a fair price. this truly is the go to guy.

 

[KCSteve]

Thanks Monk!

I'm working on my lettering skills but there are some things I have in mind to do where the machine cut letters will be best for one part. Plus there's all the other things you can do with one (as you've pointed out many times).

 

[BrianPowley]

I certainly can't argue with the beauty of "Hand cut" lettering. Nothing is nicer and yet harder to master than those custom cut letters. Everyone should make their lettering skills as good as anything else that gets clamped in their vise.
I have a pantograph, a New Hermes Universal XTL floor model. It is used for budget work only.
One of the nice things about it is you can layout and "scratch" nice uniform lettering on your work and then cut them with the chisel for permanence.It's hand engraved,but it still doesn't look as nice as custom lettering.
It is pretty much a straight line lettering tool. How often does that happen? Not very much, because it is boring and not many guns are flat. Good for budget work, but that's about it.

Another use for the pantograph is for animal design layout.
I can take a picture or a drawing of an animal, tape it to the copy table, reduce it to fit on a floor plate or whatever, trace the anatomy of the animal onto the metal, then bulino it until it comes to life.
I've found that the pantograph will perfectly locate the eyes,ears,nose, mouth and muscle structure.
The Cronite Zero-zero is a real good machine in this category.

 

[hiloboy]

i use my pantograph as just another tool in my shop. for doing engraving.i use it for mostly for layouts/and transfer work..i do have fonts for my machine that i have made along with designs that i use alot of all the time .that i hand cut masters for..i make letter fonts masters for work i have to redo. that was do in the early 1900s and it has to be the same as the original work..for me my pantograph has been a asset to my business. if used as just another tool to get the job done. and not as your only way of doing lettering..

 

[Frank P]

Steve!
Nothing beats nice handlettered jobs... it s true..
a pantograph s place is in a engraving studio.. it s true as well
and your woman think you should have one.. well..that s the best reason !!
Do you find Deckel panto 's in the states?? Not bad at at those solid germans..

 

[Keith]

I have 2 of them, one is brand new condition.New Hermes TX. But I'm in New Jersey and shipping is out.
Too Bad....
Keith

 

[Christopher Malouf]

Hey Brian,

Does that XTL floor model have a blower and a Hurst 4 speed?