Question: Do engravers jump into gun engraving too quickly?
- Thread starter Sam
- Start date
Tim Wells
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Sam, I agree with you. In America many people want instant gratification. They dont have the paitions to wait untill they are ready. When someone spent more than 2000$ on equipment they like to get theyr return on investment soon. And there is the peer pressure. Oh you went to XWZ school for a week now you are the expert and can do everythink. I am a Student of Master Engraver JJ Roberts. He is a great teacher. When I came home I was asked what did you learn, show me results!. I admited that I just lerned to prepare a surface to Master Engraver standarts. My plates were not so exiting. Even with the best teacher or school it takes a lot of time (years) to reach a professional level.
Honest feedback from professional and experienced peers is very important for leaning.
In Amerika every one is politicly corect and don't want to hurt someone elses feelings. I think it is more honest to mybe critiqe proper than just saying "how wonderfull"
Honest critique is very important for the learning progress.
Honest feedback from professional and experienced peers is very important for leaning.
In Amerika every one is politicly corect and don't want to hurt someone elses feelings. I think it is more honest to mybe critiqe proper than just saying "how wonderfull"
Honest critique is very important for the learning progress.
BrianPowley
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Yep...I also admit to engraving a gun too soon. Fortunately, the first two I engraved are both owned by me and safely locked away. There's only been a few that have seen them. After I engraved them, I stopped for a few years because I saw how awful they really were. Mom thought I was a genius...even wanted to be President of the "Oh Ahh! Committee" but I quickly learned what real "Tough Love" was all about.
Another "Stroke of luck" for us old timers: The Internet wasn't invented yet, thus saving us from ourselves.
A word of warning to the "newbies": Taking on commissions and passing off poor quality, because to think you're good enough, will follow you all of your days. I don't care how good you end up getting, once you get the reputation of butchering guns, NOBODY's going to let you work on their Colts, Winchesters, or Parkers.
You'd never get away with this as an apprentice in Europe.
Another "Stroke of luck" for us old timers: The Internet wasn't invented yet, thus saving us from ourselves.
A word of warning to the "newbies": Taking on commissions and passing off poor quality, because to think you're good enough, will follow you all of your days. I don't care how good you end up getting, once you get the reputation of butchering guns, NOBODY's going to let you work on their Colts, Winchesters, or Parkers.
You'd never get away with this as an apprentice in Europe.
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I had a friend who was a gunsmith who gave me old parts to work on, such as barrels and cylinders and even a 1911 slide. They were good practice pieces because I was working on the real thing.
The only reason I started engraving was for guns. I started early. It might still be early. But it will be two years next month. If I was still waiting I would be doing something different with the money from the sale of the slightly used equipment. I think that people do this for different reasons. I have no interest in jewelry or hobo coins. I like to see them, but wouldn't be interested in doing them. From what is written here a person like me (two years ago) would have been so discouraged that I would not have kept at it. And I have about 30 happy customers at this point.
But I did work on spec guns for a year...
But I did work on spec guns for a year...
Donny
Elite Cafe Member
Sam,
I just wrote pretty much the same thing over on the FEGA forum...gun shows are great for obtaining pieces and parts to practice laying out a design and then cutting it...
No one will see any of my practice pieces for the very reason Brian stated above. I work, spend time with my family, and I draw draw draw, cut cut cut, dot dot dot (Bulino...absolutely passionate about it! )
Donny
This thread has gotten some excellent comments. It's certainly not meant to be discouraging...only cautionary.
As someone pointed out, the same can be said for knife engraving, jewelry, and other items. I've seen quite a few high-end custom knives turned into low-end crapola with poor engraving. When I was an eager fledgling gun engraver I had plenty of work and customers who loved what I was doing, even though it was poorly designed and engraved.
I guess the bottom line is pleasing our customers, never being content with the end result, and constantly striving for improvement.
As for honest critique as mentioned by oakleave, here's what I've seen happen on photography forums. Someone posts a photo and 50 people who know little or nothing and who are not in a position to critique anything start jabbering away about how it should have been photographed or post-processed. The original poster is left dazed and confused with more bad advice in the mix than good advice. We've also seen this play out here in the Cafe. In a perfect world critique would be given by those who are actually qualified to critique, and graciously received by the person who did the engraving. Sadly, that's not often the case.
As someone pointed out, the same can be said for knife engraving, jewelry, and other items. I've seen quite a few high-end custom knives turned into low-end crapola with poor engraving. When I was an eager fledgling gun engraver I had plenty of work and customers who loved what I was doing, even though it was poorly designed and engraved.
I guess the bottom line is pleasing our customers, never being content with the end result, and constantly striving for improvement.
As for honest critique as mentioned by oakleave, here's what I've seen happen on photography forums. Someone posts a photo and 50 people who know little or nothing and who are not in a position to critique anything start jabbering away about how it should have been photographed or post-processed. The original poster is left dazed and confused with more bad advice in the mix than good advice. We've also seen this play out here in the Cafe. In a perfect world critique would be given by those who are actually qualified to critique, and graciously received by the person who did the engraving. Sadly, that's not often the case.
:clapping::banana::bow:
BrianPowley
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Spot on Sam and certainly not meant to be discouraging at all.
Even though I've been at this business for quite some time, I'm still amazed at who is watching us. People you'd never, in a thousand years, expect to be looking at our work and taking mental "notes".
I get calls and emails all the time from people that found my work, and the works of others, here and elsewhere on the web.
Believe me, they are naming names, talking about what they like, and what makes them cringe!!!.
Please realize you are laying down a foundation that you are building your reputation on.
Even though I've been at this business for quite some time, I'm still amazed at who is watching us. People you'd never, in a thousand years, expect to be looking at our work and taking mental "notes".
I get calls and emails all the time from people that found my work, and the works of others, here and elsewhere on the web.
Believe me, they are naming names, talking about what they like, and what makes them cringe!!!.
Please realize you are laying down a foundation that you are building your reputation on.
Arnaud Van Tilburgh
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
About the question if some people start engraving guns before they can cut a straight line, I think a lot do. That probably because in the US it is easier to buy a gun to practice engraving than finding a practice plate to start with.
Being a goldsmith most of my engravings are done on jewellery, but I understand that gun engraving is the thing where it is all about now a days.
Look at FEGA and even Bram’s school; it is there because of the Belgium weapon industry during the golden days.
I have one Browning pistol I’m working on in between all other jobs. I didn’t cut a single line yet, still working on the design.
And when I look at Bram’s design for the gun how he learns at school, it is the way to do it.
I understand sometimes you can’t be Zen at all and you need to hurry, but I will be 60 next month, and I quit hurry.
And here I go again about vectors, making sketches for my pistol is the way I start to find out how the design will look like, but instead of using tracing paper and an optiviser for making the final design at real size, I still am convinced there comes Illustrator that can do the job better and faster.
I understand that schools and especially the teacher will stay with the traditional method of making the final designs and colouring them. As I look at Bram’s designs and the ones Roland Baptiste do, to me they seem to use the same pencil technique.
But if you think about it, once there is a teacher who is able to teach the use of vectors, making such designs, there will be the best of two.
arnaud
Being a goldsmith most of my engravings are done on jewellery, but I understand that gun engraving is the thing where it is all about now a days.
Look at FEGA and even Bram’s school; it is there because of the Belgium weapon industry during the golden days.
I have one Browning pistol I’m working on in between all other jobs. I didn’t cut a single line yet, still working on the design.
And when I look at Bram’s design for the gun how he learns at school, it is the way to do it.
I understand sometimes you can’t be Zen at all and you need to hurry, but I will be 60 next month, and I quit hurry.
And here I go again about vectors, making sketches for my pistol is the way I start to find out how the design will look like, but instead of using tracing paper and an optiviser for making the final design at real size, I still am convinced there comes Illustrator that can do the job better and faster.
I understand that schools and especially the teacher will stay with the traditional method of making the final designs and colouring them. As I look at Bram’s designs and the ones Roland Baptiste do, to me they seem to use the same pencil technique.
But if you think about it, once there is a teacher who is able to teach the use of vectors, making such designs, there will be the best of two.
arnaud
mitch
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2007
- Messages
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that reminds me- maybe we need a special 'professional members only' section on the forum where we can privately discuss our clients. who's a problem, who's a prince, who's slow to pay, etc. oh, and if you get caught talking about it, you're out- permanently. (First rule of Fight Club is you don't talk about Fight Club.)
KCSteve
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
I think one of the underappreciated benefits of forums like this is that it lets us newer engravers see what a properly engraved object looks like. At least in some cases that lets us know how far from ready for a gun / knife / whatever we are.
Or at least a good one - as noted, cheap junk knives are great real world practice pieces and fairly easy to get your hands on. Gun parts may or may not be easy to get but pieces of pipe at least let you work on the challenges of working on a cylinder.
Or at least a good one - as noted, cheap junk knives are great real world practice pieces and fairly easy to get your hands on. Gun parts may or may not be easy to get but pieces of pipe at least let you work on the challenges of working on a cylinder.
scott99
Elite Cafe Member
Critique or not?
Hi, I am getting into this because the word Critique implies someone taking time out of their day to look and with careful viewing make suggestions on how the work may be improved or just junked.
I hesitate asking for a Critique just for this reason. I don't feel like my work is good enough to spend another persons time on it. I always ask for comments good or bad and at times people have given me great advice. This advice has always been appreciated, good or bad and one way or another it all helps and is appreciated very much.
It wasn't that long ago when I was reading peoples complaints on "spoon feeding" people. That takes time out of a work day as well and I understand the thought.
So do I chance the risk of making someone angry or frustrated by asking for a Critique or do I try and keep my requests at a level that may not cause a problem???? :thinking:
Just a thought about the use of other hard working artists most precious thing TIME.
scott99
Hi, I am getting into this because the word Critique implies someone taking time out of their day to look and with careful viewing make suggestions on how the work may be improved or just junked.
I hesitate asking for a Critique just for this reason. I don't feel like my work is good enough to spend another persons time on it. I always ask for comments good or bad and at times people have given me great advice. This advice has always been appreciated, good or bad and one way or another it all helps and is appreciated very much.
It wasn't that long ago when I was reading peoples complaints on "spoon feeding" people. That takes time out of a work day as well and I understand the thought.
So do I chance the risk of making someone angry or frustrated by asking for a Critique or do I try and keep my requests at a level that may not cause a problem???? :thinking:
Just a thought about the use of other hard working artists most precious thing TIME.
scott99
Chapi
Elite Cafe Member
I sure engraved my first firearm too soon. I hadn't intended to engrave any firearms at that point, but an acquaintance had overheard me mentioning my passion for engraving, and they wanted me to do up their 1911 style slide. I figured I could handle it and it seemed to progress fairly easily, but when I posted it, I was told in no uncertain terms that I had committed a sin against firearms everywhere and what on earth was I thinking I had ruined(!) this firearm. No critique other than that the artwork (scroll) was flawed was offered, and my critic has never offered any constructive criticism. I look at pictures of that slide from time to time, and while it isn't what I would do today, its not too bad, and certainly not the abomination that I was told. The thing that I learned from this was something I had know from my experience in tattooing and that is this: Do Not believe your own press. Every artist has dedicated fans among their friends and family that will sing your praises and pat your back and tell you how gifted and talented you are-they mean well, but there is a point where the encouragement turns into aggrandizement and you must remember always that real criticism is only worth something if it comes from someone with the knowledge of what they are looking at.
Since that first firearm, I have moved on to engraving tattoo machines, which I enjoy much more because I am grounded to the world of tattooing and so everything that I do ends up there. Sometimes I will see someone taking a "vibrograver" or dremel rotary tool to a tattoo machine frame and it looks like ass, and then I see fifty million people on facebook "ooooo and ahhhhhing" over it and I remember "don't believe your own press". I would say something to the "engraver" but really, does anyone listen to the one naysayer when there are a hundred cheerleaders? I like cheerleaders too.
Since that first firearm, I have moved on to engraving tattoo machines, which I enjoy much more because I am grounded to the world of tattooing and so everything that I do ends up there. Sometimes I will see someone taking a "vibrograver" or dremel rotary tool to a tattoo machine frame and it looks like ass, and then I see fifty million people on facebook "ooooo and ahhhhhing" over it and I remember "don't believe your own press". I would say something to the "engraver" but really, does anyone listen to the one naysayer when there are a hundred cheerleaders? I like cheerleaders too.
But I believe that experts forget what it was like to start. They say they remember but they are so far down the path of knowledge it is truly difficult to have a clear picture.
I tutor upper lever math to high school and college students (I own the local Sylvan Learning Center). I find that most teachers, including myself, assume knowledge that some students don't have. We also set the bar for what is acceptable performance at a level that is inappropriate for some. Not everyone will become an astrophysicist.
There is a lot of demand for inexpensive engraving. Cowboy Action Shooters want their name alias on the blackstrap. They are willing to pay $50-$100 for it. I don't see many European masters, or American ones for that matter, that would be willing to do this work all day. In our community there appears to be a big demand for $500 to $1500 engraving jobs. If you quoted a $20,000 plus job, you would be laughed out of town.
We need engravers that are willing to do this work. They might someday be able to demand more, but need to start somewhere.
I hate my first pistol. My wife keeps pulling it out and showing people. Several people have said I want one just like that.
Just remember that most of us won't be a Churchill, Alfano or Baptiste. Some talent can't be learned, you have to be born with it. But there us still a place for everyone.
I tutor upper lever math to high school and college students (I own the local Sylvan Learning Center). I find that most teachers, including myself, assume knowledge that some students don't have. We also set the bar for what is acceptable performance at a level that is inappropriate for some. Not everyone will become an astrophysicist.
There is a lot of demand for inexpensive engraving. Cowboy Action Shooters want their name alias on the blackstrap. They are willing to pay $50-$100 for it. I don't see many European masters, or American ones for that matter, that would be willing to do this work all day. In our community there appears to be a big demand for $500 to $1500 engraving jobs. If you quoted a $20,000 plus job, you would be laughed out of town.
We need engravers that are willing to do this work. They might someday be able to demand more, but need to start somewhere.
I hate my first pistol. My wife keeps pulling it out and showing people. Several people have said I want one just like that.
Just remember that most of us won't be a Churchill, Alfano or Baptiste. Some talent can't be learned, you have to be born with it. But there us still a place for everyone.
Donny
Elite Cafe Member
Just remember that most of us won't be a Churchill, Alfano or Baptiste. Some talent can't be learned, you have to be born with it. But there us still a place for everyone.[/QUOTE]
True. But I for one shall strive to reach that level
I know I am "A" typical but the prospect of doing a real 1873 justice, or being able to recut a damaged Parker, or designing and cutting a highend Sharps are my personal goals. I truly enjoy the artistic expression involved in engraving a weapon.
Donny
SASS #22310 Marshal Restin Peace
True. But I for one shall strive to reach that level
I know I am "A" typical but the prospect of doing a real 1873 justice, or being able to recut a damaged Parker, or designing and cutting a highend Sharps are my personal goals. I truly enjoy the artistic expression involved in engraving a weapon.Donny
SASS #22310 Marshal Restin Peace
Marcus Hunt
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Hmmm, I'm not sure agree with that. I do remember a lot and how difficult things were in the beginning.
I also remember a certain amount of pressure as an apprentice to get to an acceptable standard as fast as possible. Nobody in the gun trade wants to wait til you've served 5 years before you get a job to do. It starts off with doing small parts for the master before progressing on to a full gun. In my case I think I cut my first gun within 18 months or so. It was a Jeffery box lock and it didn't turn out half bad, BUT I had my father to fall back on if there were any difficulties and that makes a huge difference to what you guys are doing today.
Arnaud Van Tilburgh
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
If I remember well, it is said on this forum several times in the past ,: "you can only become a master engraver if you engraved a gun"
So the pressure starting gun engraving is reality to all of us, that because the most mastered engravers do.
Sure I never will be a gun engraver, that because I'm too old now to become famous on that. I'm getting just a bit famous on jewellery and jewellery engraving Titanium.
I have my gun project engraving my own one, and it has to be real great. So I'm still on the design part of it. At the same time I engrave other items and I don't bother that much about the design.
So it seems me too have been influenced by you all that gun engraving is the top to reach.
It would be me showing and asking for critique on the design for my gun project if not by doing that, I invite everyone to critique on my design. In the past I had very good critiques and help on my designs by forum members who have the skills to give the right critique. But now, by pushing the critique request button, in a way you invite everyone to criticize your work. That is why I don't do that any more.
I know, when asking for critique, everyone try to be polite and give you that critique, but I agree about what is already said on this here in this tread before, only those who are "qualified" should critique your work.
Or even better would be having some qualified critique members who are free to give you critique, wetter or not you asked for it.
What do you think?
arnaud
So the pressure starting gun engraving is reality to all of us, that because the most mastered engravers do.
Sure I never will be a gun engraver, that because I'm too old now to become famous on that. I'm getting just a bit famous on jewellery and jewellery engraving Titanium.
I have my gun project engraving my own one, and it has to be real great. So I'm still on the design part of it. At the same time I engrave other items and I don't bother that much about the design.
So it seems me too have been influenced by you all that gun engraving is the top to reach.
It would be me showing and asking for critique on the design for my gun project if not by doing that, I invite everyone to critique on my design. In the past I had very good critiques and help on my designs by forum members who have the skills to give the right critique. But now, by pushing the critique request button, in a way you invite everyone to criticize your work. That is why I don't do that any more.
I know, when asking for critique, everyone try to be polite and give you that critique, but I agree about what is already said on this here in this tread before, only those who are "qualified" should critique your work.
Or even better would be having some qualified critique members who are free to give you critique, wetter or not you asked for it.
What do you think?
arnaud
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