Question: Do engravers jump into gun engraving too quickly?

[Tom Curran]

For me, there are two ways to look at this:
1) never start gun engraving until you're good enough (and you may never start!)
-or-
2) engrave the gun, and learn from your mistakes. Nothing improves you faster than seeing your own mistakes. You won't make the same mistake over again.

You have to put yourself out there 200% sometimes, and the result isn't always perfect. But you improve with each and every task. If I thought I'd wait until I was good enough to do the job, I'd never be able feed myself or keep a roof over my head. You must take the challenges as they come, and do the best you can with them.

You must work within your abilities, but always stretch for the next rung. Challenge and grow your skills slowly and thoughtfully.

Tom

 

[didyoung]

I am one that can relate to this thread.....many of you have seen my attempts at engraving.
hope to continue to improve and make less mistakes

 

[silverchip]

Keeping in mind that this thread is specific to gun engraving and remembering my days as a pup,I was just as guilty as any ignoramus eager to start engraving guns and I did. In hindsight, it was a bad idea but we didn't have any guidance other than photographs.Not much information on sharpening or quality tools ect. After fumbling around on a few guns, I went to John B's engraving class and learned the fundamentals that I was missing.It was priceless to get that help and come to the eventual decision that I didn't want to engrave guns for anybody else but me.I did go on engraving and have made a living with it but I am still constantly learning myself and teaching what I know,I love doing this and consider what I do as just another day in my way of life.
So as you can see it isn't just all about engraving guns but the decision to make that your focus and committing to do the craft justice,after all craft is what happens before it becomes art!!!!!

 

[Marcus Hunt]

For me, there are two ways to look at this:
1) never start gun engraving until you're good enough (and you may never start!)
-or-
2) engrave the gun, and learn from your mistakes. Nothing improves you faster than seeing your own mistakes. You won't make the same mistake over again.

You have to put yourself out there 200% sometimes, and the result isn't always perfect. But you improve with each and every task. If I thought I'd wait until I was good enough to do the job, I'd never be able feed myself or keep a roof over my head. You must take the challenges as they come, and do the best you can with them.

You must work within your abilities, but always stretch for the next rung. Challenge and grow your skills slowly and thoughtfully.

Tom

Okay, I'm going to make myself really popular here (not!) and I'm going to be pretty brutal but not name any names, some of the guns I've seen on the various forums really make me shudder. If you are engraving a gun purely for yourself and your own enjoyment and aren't quite up to it to get good results then that is absolutely fine. But if you then show the gun to your friends and they ask you to do more for them and then you start charging then, mmmm, not so good.

Let's take a couple of the points you make Tom; 1) "Nothing improves you faster than seeing your own mistakes." Are you sure? How do you recognise your mistakes and do the necessary corrections? In the meantime you've flushed a couple of hundred $'s down the drain.....I don't think many of us can afford to do that too often!

2) "You won't make the same mistake over again." Won't you? I've seen people make the same mistakes over and over whilst they're learning and unless someone is there to say "Whoa!" and help them sort it they will carry on making the mistakes. I've even seen so called 'professional' engravers over here who have been working 40+ years on guns who can't release the bur from the cut properly!!!

Okay, there will always be engravers of various standards but one of the things my father taught me was, "It takes as much energy to cut a gun wrongly as correctly." So why waste your energy cutting a gun before you're really ready? I have seen so many bad examples of engraving in magazines over the years where the journalist "OOhh's" and "AArrr's" over total crap and spouts off how good it is. The likes of McDonalds, Burger King, Pizza Hut, etc, etc, etc, prove that if you feed enough crap to the people over a long enough period eventually those people begin to believe that the crap is good for them. It's not!!! (I enjoy the occasional Mac but I do realise it's not healthy stuff.)

It's the same with engraving firearms. Don't be one of the crap engravers content to feed rubbish to ignorant folks who don't know any better and will ooogy over your work and massage your ego. Be an ambassador for our craft and show the best you are capable of (it doesn't have to be top class just respectable) and that way the public will gradually become more discerning in their tastes. If that means waiting an extra year or so before you tackle that oh so tempting gun, then wait. If you can wait until you've really got a handle on the basics you'll be so much prouder of your work in the future rather than looking at your first gun and cringe. When I look back on the photos of the first gun I engraved I am not ashamed. It was very good for my first gun and I'm still quite proud of it. But I did have a huge advantage over most of you guys. I had someone looking over my shoulder and guiding me when I needed it.

Engraving has a lot of different fields and not everyone is suited or wants to work on guns. It's bloody hard work and guns just might not be your thing whereas you might excel as a copperplate engraver.

 

[Kevin Scott]

I have never engraved a gun, and its very unlikely I will ever put a graver to one.

But Marcus's points 1) and 2) do apply to me. I have made the same mistakes over and over again. Why? One reason is I don't know what I doing wrong, and what I should be doing instead. Another reason is I know it when some things I do don't look right, but I don't know why it does not look right. Plus other reasons.

Through practice, study, and trying different geometries, length of graver and other variables I have made progress. But it is slow progress.

Personally, I don't think I should charge for any work, engraving or anything else, unless it is a quality job. But it is a personal decision.

 

[Tom Curran]

No harm done, Marcus, at least at this keyboard. This is an excellent thread.

I feel very strongly about using the right style of engraving for the kind of work that is before me.

I don't engrave rifles for a living; the ones I do engrave, I do for myself. I build traditional flintlock American longrifles, and try to stay in the 18th century vernacular. This can mean folk art style artwork, and rather crude engraving, by modern standards. In my opinion, high grade engraving is rarely appropriate for this kind of work. There a few exceptions.

The whole piece has to function visually: the form of the stock, the metal with the wood, the colors of the materials, the carving, the inlays, the style of engraving. All of these must suit the period and region of the gun, and need to work together for it to be a successful piece of art. Much as a composer brings different instruments together to create a symphony, every facet of the longrifle has to work together to make the whole.

I always work at my techniques, and always learn. But I am not my best teacher. I take your point about repeating mistakes; I will do something the same way, right or wrong, until I learn a better way to do it. No argument there. I don't mind asking for help or taking lessons from the pro's. When I DO realize mistakes I have made, I learn not to repeat them. That is more honest.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply, Marcus.

Tom

 

[Big-Un]

I consider myself a pretty good journeyman engraver and understand where I am. Of course I want to become a "master" in the craft and I know I can pass the requirements to get that designation from FEGA (confidence, not arrogance) but won't because I don't want people expecting a level of work I'm not willing to give them, due to various reasons, among which is the time required to execute that level of work. At my age, I don't intend to spend all my time in the studio, months and months on a project, when my wife and I finally have the time and resources to enjoy each others company. While it is good to produce a masterpiece, I can't justify my time to do so. Others may be content to devote that much time and effort on a piece and enjoy the process, and that is well and good. My clients understand my position and while I will give them the best of my ability (and then some) they also understand I am not totally chained to my work; I'm not locked in the studio with meals slid through the door. In my youth I would have given my right arm to devote that kind of time and effort to produce expert work, and I did devote that time practicing on practice plates, until my wife couldn't stand hearing tic-tic-tic any more. After a year or more of practicing, I searched for help from established engravers and found none. This was in the mid eighties, and the only "live" engraver was an old German jewelry engraver in Palm Beach who told me I "was taking his customers away" and walked away. I believe if I had had the opportunity Marcus had, or others on this forum had with family in the business and proper instruction, I could possibly be considered good enough to embellish fine firearms. As it is, I'm satisfied with my niche in the art and strive to be the best in that niche. As far as "did I engrave a gun too early?" Then my answer is yes. It took over a year of hard practice before I did one, a NAA mini revolver, and although it wasn't too bad (I'm wasn't ashamed of it) I still had a lot to learn. Still do. But, at the time, I was confident enough in my limited skills to attempt one. You have to jump in there at some point, so you might as well go for it. If we wait until our efforts warrant expert work, most of us would never get beyond sharpening our gravers. I do acceptable work and do charge a reasonable fee for it, and my clients are happy. I must be doing something right, as my bench is backed up with work waiting to be done.

Bill

 

[oakleave]

Prakticing on pracltise plates is good but the student needs professional feedback. Otherwise he practise mistakes, these go into mussel memory and it is very difficult to get these mistake out later on. A student should ind a knowlegable menter for regular exchange of ideas and feedback. Nothing is worse than practising mistakes. As a professional Educator (FAA Gold Seal Flight Instructor with more than 1000hours flight training given) I see flight students or inexperienced pilots practicing on a Flight simulator without feedback and than it thates a long time to get these bad habits out ( law of primacy)
Bernie

 

[dlilazteca]

Yes we do! Hahaha having some beers:beer:
And got the bright idea on this project...so I just did it... I can always buy another slide for 200 but the experience is worth the price!

I've been bitten by the engraving bug spending my weekend having some beers and engraving in my man cave!

Lets not forget the rock n roll playing.

Salud Amigos! Translated Cheers:beer::beer:

Have a beautiful weekend

YOLO.. You only live once
Carlos De La O III

 

[Glenn]

On occasions we pass away. Thus even our practice plates and heaven forbid our favorite first engraved firearm that no one ever saw before becomes available for all to see. NEED I SAY MORE?

 

[DKanger]

Thus even our practice plates and heaven forbid our favorite first engraved firearm that no one ever saw before becomes available for all to see. NEED I SAY MORE?

Yeah, BUT YOU"RE DEAD and it makes no difference to you anymore. Actually, the early works of many masters becomes more valuable than their later stuff.

 

[silverchip]

yeah, but you"re dead and it makes no difference to you anymore. Actually, the early works of many masters becomes more valuable than their later stuff.

lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[FANCYGUN]

So I guess this all means we should all keep looking back over our shoulder for the early client with a gun we won't admit to ever engraving, is going to kill us so their cherished gun will be worth something more. I'm scared already. But then again there are a few engravers that usually would like us out of the way also so their own work might be more desireable at least in their own minds.
You can't win so just enjoy the ride

 

[Southern Custom]

Guilty. Still have that gun in my safe and it will never see the light of day. I keep it as a reminder to not work outside of my comfort zone or skill level until I'm ready.
It took me a long time to learn that even though I could cut well, I was nowhere close to having the foundation in design, scrollwork, etc needed to work on a nice firearm. I now spend very little time practicing with the gravers unless it involves a new technique. The majority of my time is spent pencil in hand and if I had one piece of advice it would be just that. Focus on good design and the cutting will come. There are a few rare individuals who because of artistic background may be in the opposite situation but most of the early work I've seen from beginners could have benefited from learning what makes a good scroll.
An engraver I recently met told me something that he said was passed to him by Sam A. early in his career. ( and feel free to correct me Sam). It was something like, "A good proper design that is well thought out and balanced but not necessarily perfectly cut will stand the test of time, but a poorly designed piece, no matter how well cut, will never hold up." Thanks to all the guys who gave me honest critiques. I could have used it years ago when those around me were telling me how wonderful every line I cut was.

 

[heimex]

Guilty, I engrave are 4 months and I can not stop myself : Confused: