Question: Do engravers jump into gun engraving too quickly?

[Sam]

But I believe that experts forget what it was like to start. They say they remember but they are so far down the path of knowledge it is truly difficult to have a clear picture.

As an engraving teacher I'm constantly reminded of how difficult it is when starting out, and I vividly remember my own struggles.

There is a lot of demand for inexpensive engraving. Cowboy Action Shooters want their name alias on the blackstrap. They are willing to pay $50-$100 for it. I don't see many European masters, or American ones for that matter, that would be willing to do this work all day. In our community there appears to be a big demand for $500 to $1500 engraving jobs. If you quoted a $20,000 plus job, you would be laughed out of town.

You are absolutely correct, Gerry. I remember watching engraver George Sherwood cutting western style scroll at a show and I told him I really liked how he could cut it so quickly and kept it looking so good. His reply was "There are a lot more people in this room with $200 in their pocket than those with $2000." So yes, there is a healthy demand for less expensive work, but that's irrelevant to this discussion. No one is saying every job needs to be the Sistine Chapel and cost $20,000+.

We need engravers that are willing to do this work. They might someday be able to demand more, but need to start somewhere.

I agree. No one is arguing that. In fact, nice, cleanly engraved production work can be very attractive and far more profitable per hour than really high end work. Of course this depends on the job, who's doing the engraving, etc.

Just remember that most of us won't be a Churchill, Alfano or Baptiste. Some talent can't be learned, you have to be born with it. But there us still a place for everyone.

I don't know a single engraver, artist, or musician who was born with talent. I'm not saying they don't exist, I'm just saying I personally don't know any. Every artist I know started at the bottom and worked his or her butts for many years to attain a high level of skill and artistry. I believe that anyone who is willing to persevere can learn and do just about anything they want.

 

[mitch]

"In fact, nice, cleanly engraved production work can be very attractive and far more profitable per hour than really high end work."

truer words were never spoken, my friend...

 

[BrianPowley]

98% of my work is production work, and it pays handsomely!
I agree 100% with Sam about talent.
The definition of "Talent" is: a natural aptitude or skill. We sometimes assume those people are born with the ability they are displaying in their excellent performances or works of art. Those assumptions can be somewhat insulting, I think, to those people that have spent thousands---even tens of thousands of hours "perfecting" their craft.
If you take the "Best of the Best" in any genre and find out how much they continually practice, it would boggle your mind.

 

[silverchip]

98% of my work is production work, and it pays handsomely!
I agree 100% with Sam about talent.
The definition of "Talent" is: a natural aptitude or skill. We sometimes assume those people are born with the ability they are displaying in their excellent performances or works of art. Those assumptions can be somewhat insulting, I think, to those people that have spent thousands---even tens of thousands of hours "perfecting" their craft.
If you take the "Best of the Best" in any genre and find out how much they continually practice, it would boggle your mind.

The perception of natural talent is over-rated.Practice as in production engraving made me a better engraver.......

 

[DakotaDocMartin]

I believe that anyone who is willing to persevere can learn and do just about anything they want.

Automotive and assembly line industrialist Henry Ford said "Whether You Think You Can or think you can't, You are Right"

In other words, if you think you can't, it will stop you from succeeding. If you think you can, it will drive you to success.

 

[Dulltool]

When I decided to teach myself how to engrave with my grandfathers tools, I was truly driven.... I wanted to be able to engrave guns.
I bought tons of old cheap gun parts off of eBay, cylinders , barrels even old frames. I jumped in with both feet and haven't looked back.
A lot of those parts were resold as badly engraved paper weights but I was off and running... Those lead to engraving Italian black powder guns. I was off and running as an gun engraver

 

[Beathard]

Sam, I agree that with hard work and some guidance a person can become really good. But to be great I think you need a little more. You need a genetic aptitude. There are a lot of painters that have worked hard but there are not a lot of Michelangelos or Da Vincis in all of history.

 

[Sam]

Sam, I agree that with hard work and some guidance a person can become really good. But to be great I think you need a little more. You need a genetic aptitude. There are a lot of painters that have worked hard but there are not a lot of Michelangelos or Da Vincis in all of history.

It's a fascinating discussion in itself, but I honestly believe that we are FAR more capable than we give ourselves credit for, and as a person advances in his/her art they find that accessing capabilities they didn't know they had becomes easier and more frequent.

 

[BrianPowley]

But to be great I think you need a little more.

This reminds me...years ago, I told my wife "I love engraving, but I don't think I could ever make a living at it."
She said, "Keep telling yourself that, and you never will."
Those words alone instilled my persistence to master this craft.

 

[tkelch]

i think the only natural aptitude that would be required is intelligence and perserverance although both can also be learned traits.

 

[DakotaDocMartin]

i think the only natural aptitude that would be required is intelligence and perserverance although both can also be learned traits.

Definitely, intelligence is not a learned trait. You either have it or don't have it in various degrees.

 

[billrice@charter.net]

Sam and everyone on this post This is a great thread. I have been engraving now for about 13 years and I still feel that I am a novice because there is so much to learn about Hand Engraving. My father always told me that " cant never did anything" and I think this meant we as humans have the ability to do anything we put our minds and hearts to. Some get there faster because they spend the money to go to training and then practice allot. I still struggle with shading lines however last year I got some good critique and along with that critique was a suggestion to go back to my studio and get out some steel practice plates and just cut Hair lines one after the other and fill the plate then do another plate. I did this until I got bored. You know though it really helped. I still not a master at shading lines and I still need to get out more plates to cut some more lines but I believe I have made progress. I think this concept of practicing graver control is told to all of us on this and other forums all the time. One of the best things I learned from going to the ABS knife makers school is " Good enough is never Good enough. You always want to do your best" This saying is always in my mind and it helps me to keep improving in my skills.
I just want to thank all of you for your inspiration and help at keeping the passion glowing in my heart.

 

[take-down]

I have found this thread very interesting
Perhaps I differ from many in thier reason to learn the skill of engraving. Many years ago I started doing a bit of art just for relaxation, to take the mind, body & soul away from the presures of work & a very ill wife. I enjoyed it and did a painting or 2, Then a good friend was having a 21st birthday & I knew he liked a painting I did, so I did one for him as a gift. The -phone then started ringing, people wanted me to paint a picture on commision for them. I couldn't, as I felt I don't know how they feel when they look at a view, what emotions it brings to the front, so I declined & put my paints away.
Over the Years I have got into firearms collecting & always desired to own an engraved gun. No way I'll ever be able to afford one so I searched the internet about 4 years ago and happened on this & other sites
I have acquired some equipment and cut out alot of practice plates & practicing when work allows
I don't have a desire to sell my work so my progress is controled by my comfort as I progress & that is still learning cutting depth, sharpening All the beging steps
The Great thing about this forum is the comments & the willingness of people to show thier work I find this a great motivation
I spend a great part of my day when work is tedius creating desings in my mind, This site and the engraver journal have helped me focus on specific areas of the design in my mind and I can now start putting a rough impression down on paper of that point ( One day I hope to put it all together)
So I won't be engraving any of the cheap knives, square sets or guns I have stored away before I truely feel able to.
But in saying that I truely admire those that feel brave enough to challange themselves to try, because in doing so not only do they learn but I also learn a lot
Cheers Graham

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Do engravers jump Into gun engraving too quickly?………..The short answer to that is yes, most people do. Same with knives, jewellery and just about anything else.

Most of us are quite keen to get our feet wet and practice on the real thing. This is a natural urge for human beings to run before they can walk. If you are in a school environment or serving as an apprentice then the tutor or Master that you are working under will not allow this until you have reached a satisfactory level of competence in design and technical skill. In these environments there is normally some sort of structure to your learning.

However for the rest of us it's all a bit different……….we are generally self taught with maybe an occasional class if we are really lucky, or by having mentors and whatever we can learn on forums, books and videos. So the path to success is far more muddled with almost no structure. Throw into the mix things like age, families, jobs, partners, mortgages etc and it starts getting a lot messier.

Let's face it, practice plates only go so far before you start looking at the gun in the safe………. and before you know it, the drums start beating and the Devil whispers in your ear and into the vise it goes and then you are cutting it. Then someone says they will pay for you to cut their gun……….so there really is a God!!!! Woohoooo!!!!!

It's at this point someone should grab you by the throat, slap you around and shake you till your teeth chatter and ask……… what were you thinking??????

But the reality is that all of us on the forum are here for different reasons. Some have taken a class, got the bug and just want a hobby that they can play with. Their work may never be very good but they are enjoying the whole deal and over time start getting a bit better. With others it may be an age thing and there isn't time to get good at it so they just go for it and start cutting. Then there is the truly hopeless that will never be good at it but they are enjoying themselves. There are also the tinkerers that love nothing better than playing with tools and the engraving equipment is just one lot amongst a workshop full of tools and other discarded hobbies. There's a lot to be said for putting a gun in a vise and cutting. You learn a whole lot that you just can't learn on a practice plate.…………Who are we to say it's wrong? Life is to short and we need to enjoy it as much as we can. Go for it!!! There is no law that say's that when you engrave, it must be good engraving.

Then there is the more serious amongst us. The people that want to improve and get as good as they can be because there is some kind of inner itch that needs scratching. For some the results will be mediocre, others will shine and a select few will go on to become the future Churchill's of this world. That's just the law of natural selection.

Newbies (and some more experienced engravers) that butcher guns (or anything else) just make my work look better so I can ask a higher price. For the customer that likes butchered guns, I don't want their work in the first place because they are generally looking for work on the cheap. Those that shine and go onto become the Churchill's of this world, well, hopefully they can spend a little time every now and then and show me how to improve my work and get better at it. There's a lot of generosity of spirit out there.

So all in all it's just different stokes for different folks and whatever spins your wheels. Enjoy yourself no matter what level you are at……………..The world is big enough to accommodate us all.

Now where did I put that gun……………….

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

I agree whit what Andrew says but, whether or not one is born more talented than another one, in my opinion we all can learn and do things another human is able to do. That because we all are humans.
But, I call it the virus, one has to be bitten by it to become really good at what he plans to learn.
A learning process is something you have to do yourself; no one can learn you anything. You have to do it yourself. Yes you can use a teacher, however you will learn nothing if you don’t want to.
If the virus bites you, then you will be able to learn whatever you want to learn. The only problem is you can only be bitten by one virus at the time; at least that is how it works for me.

I play the contrabass since I was 17, I do cooking and photography, but I was never bitten by those viruses otherwise I could have had better skills on that.
But I still have the jewellery making virus in me….

arnaud

 

[Lane]

Engraving a cheap gun that is mine is acceptable to me. Charging someone to destroy their gun, I will leave to others.

How many gun engravers would there be if they all would have waited until they were good enough.

Good enough... Who is truly qualified to say.

I will stick to driving my lawn tractor in circles pretending I am a real farmer.

 

[dclevinger]

I've been away for a while but feel the need to comment on something that was mentioned.

Critiques........I remember walking around the SCI and FEGA shows, in 2004 IIRC, with a practice plate in my hand, showing it to any engraver that would look at it. I knew all of the names, Hands, Dubber, Gold, Griffiths, Pederson, etc, but had never talked to or met any of them. I had taken a class with Barraclough so I knew what to expect from him. Every single one of them took the time to look at, critique, AND explain how I could improve my work. I truly expected to have all of my hard work ripped to shreds by these guys so I tried to leave my ego behind so I could learn from them.

When you new engravers post your work here put your ego aside and ask for honest critiques from the top pros. It may sting a little bit but any criticisms are made with the desire to help you and further the art. Like everyone else, I enjoy having my ego stroked but I learn nothing from it. When Marcus or Marty pick it apart, and they have, I learn more than I thought possible.

 

[Idaho Flint]

I think some people are born with more talent for things that others. But everyone can obtain the same levels of skill. I think the talent that people have for something is really just a drive or love that instills them with confidence and determination to obtain that skill they want. I have found in my personal life that I show "Talent" towards one thing more than another. When I reflect on why this is so, I find that I had a lot more passion for that one things I had talent for. That passion drove me to learn and practice harder and faster than the thing I did not show talent for. This love and passion for the thing I wished to do, make it seem easy to obtain the skill for that thing.

If you have the love and passion for engraving (or whatever your thing is in life) you can and will become very talented in engraving. One day with a lot of hard work and perseverance, you two can become a master whom does amazing work.

Just my 2 cents
Mike

 

[TGenDS]

I absolutely LOVE this thread. Thanks for posing the question, Sam.

I'm a "newbie" engraver, and I'm well into learning and practicing the craft of engraving. While I'd like to say that I've become pretty proficient at push engraving across a variety of metals (I love the challenge of the push technique beyond all that is sane and reasonable--I really do), I'm just as involved in learning, practicing, and studying some of the other areas necessary to eventually become a good, skilled, general engraver.

After taking a couple of classes at GRS and New Approach, and after things really started to click in terms of my understanding of how gravers--and gravers + various combinations of metals--work, I was waaaay excited about wanting to try out my new skills on anything that didn't have an explicit "DO NOT ENGRAVE" sign posted on it. Guns, knives, pots, pans, garden tools, fence posts, cars, etc. Then I realized that I had to temper that enthusiasm and funnel it into my 10,000 hours of practice. --And that 10,000 hours of practice means, as Sam mentioned--in addition to practice plates-- (for me) there must be barrels of knives, barrels of guns, barrels of pots, pans, garden tools and the like, before I consider myself ready to go public and take on a big project like that for someone else.

And as excited as I initially was about buying all of the equipment I wanted, I decided to reign in the enthusiasm for doing that and purchase purposely this time. I've spent a ton of money on tools and equipment over the past several years, only to have it sit in a corner unused (I still ache when I look at that bleeping-expensive water torch sitting in my studio--it has less than 80 hours on it since I bought it in 2006--don't ask). However, the true push behind that is--I want to make sure I'm doing really well and understanding all the nuances of how the tool works at its most basic level (push and H-C) before I jump in and grab all of my pneumatic equipment--and my acquisition list is LONG. Other people might do these things differently--this is just my approach. I understand why I operate this way, which is what's important--it's not about the upfront costs at all--it's a learning-style/personality quirk.

I'm of the mentality that 10,000 hours of practice and study of theory are a minimum requirement before I ever think about engraving a gun--or anything else of engravable substance. --Not 10,000 hours literally, but you get the point. The tricky question if you're learning relatively well then becomes, at what point do you start sharing your KSAs with the world in the form of both what you call yourself and the services you offer? That is to say, at some point during the 10,000 hours you perhaps become efficient and effective enough to be able to sell some of those practice pieces (even if only for the sake of reinvesting in learning the craft--more practice materials, etc.). I wouldn't think about sharing ANYTHING publicly, at all, until at least hitting the 5K hour mark...but that's just me. I don't care about being called an engraver--i.e., MAYBE until after I reach a certain standard level of KSAs; however, other people do--almost from the beginning--which is why I mentioned that.

I'm an information junkie and I came across this blog post yesterday => 15 Reasons to Stay Focused on Developing Your Craft

And then, this is one of my favorite books (fluff notwithstanding) => Mastery, by Robert Greene

So, that's this newbie's two cents out of her dollar's worth of thoughts on the topic (I agree with other posters--it's SO not just about engraving and guns).

Love this thread. Good food for thought.

 

[bronc]

I sure have enjoyed this thread. About the time I thought I was getting some things going right I showed some of my work to Dave Alderson aka Silverchip on here. Dave asked me if I was trying to make a living at this and I told him I was. I don't remember Dave's exact words, but the gist of it was my work wasn't very good at all but my wife had a good job so I'd be all right. Well to say I was heartbroken was an understatement. Here I thought I was getting pretty good and I got the rug jerked out from under me big time. I'd had lots of critiques before, but non quite like this one from Dave. Dave was kind enough to show me what needed to be changed. So I went home and worked even harder and things slowly starting improving. I've been blessed with more help at this than I could have ever imagined but when I look back now that night Dave told me very honestly how poor my work was, well that was the best thing that ever happened to me. And since then Dave and I have become amigos. So the moral is -- when you are starting out at this your mom, your friends, ect are going to tell you how great you are doing. And it's easy to start believing them. So if someone with knowledge critiques your work and brings you back down to earth, go ahead and let it hurt your feelings. And use that to fuel yourself to drive and improve.

Stewart