mlurth
Member
sorry about the whole facebook thing.
let's see if this works
let's see if this works
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GRS or Lindsay?
- Thread starter mlurth
- Start date
Tom Curran
Elite Cafe Member
Just a suggestion: Go to an engraving show where you can try the systems out. There is nothing like experience, your own personal experience, with the tools. Folks will say, 'oh, this is the tool to get' but what you must read into that is "this tool really works well for me". It may not fit your style. Sometimes you buy tools and find you just hate them. Try something else, and sell the first before it gets outdated.
jlseymour
Elite Cafe Member
Ya'll said it all...
I have both and use the Palm Control more because I can take it to the house at night after I close the jewelry shop...
GRS builds fine tools for the engravers and their equiptment is sold through most suppliers to the jewelry trade and many other outlets...
Try them all...
Jerry
I have both and use the Palm Control more because I can take it to the house at night after I close the jewelry shop...
GRS builds fine tools for the engravers and their equiptment is sold through most suppliers to the jewelry trade and many other outlets...
Try them all...
Jerry
Christopher Malouf
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
No wife, no prospects Jim. Just my dog and a satellite dish out here in the hills. I might joke about the bunker but I really am a hermit.
-----
Mlurth,
This discussion has surfaced many times and the bias is thick from both sides of the fence. Choose wisely because both systems have their "quirks" which you'll figure out over time and they can be different for everybody. (this is about where I'll get dogpiled by the GRS folks who insist their system is perfect)
Beware of the "tool treadmill" and sales folks that suggest you need to get this or that for whatever reason. You want the most versatile tool when you get started ... from there you'll figure out what you REALLY need. IMHO, I think it is the Lindsay setup. "Versatile" is one handpeice that does what you want ... not three. If you buy GRS, buy FROM GRS directly. If you buy from Lindsay, well, the only one you'll talk to is Steve and not only is he a brilliant man but straightup too.
The most important thing to invest in is a good quality air compressor. Even if you get the CO2 setup, save them for going on the road. Be sure to double filter the air and/or use a coalescing air filter which filters up to 25 microns ... even if you are not using an oil lubricated compressor it's a good idea.
Drain the compressor regularly too.
GRS and Lindsay are air lubricated precision instruments and what goes into them (as for air) is very important.
Regards,
Chris
-----
Mlurth,
This discussion has surfaced many times and the bias is thick from both sides of the fence. Choose wisely because both systems have their "quirks" which you'll figure out over time and they can be different for everybody. (this is about where I'll get dogpiled by the GRS folks who insist their system is perfect)
Beware of the "tool treadmill" and sales folks that suggest you need to get this or that for whatever reason. You want the most versatile tool when you get started ... from there you'll figure out what you REALLY need. IMHO, I think it is the Lindsay setup. "Versatile" is one handpeice that does what you want ... not three. If you buy GRS, buy FROM GRS directly. If you buy from Lindsay, well, the only one you'll talk to is Steve and not only is he a brilliant man but straightup too.
The most important thing to invest in is a good quality air compressor. Even if you get the CO2 setup, save them for going on the road. Be sure to double filter the air and/or use a coalescing air filter which filters up to 25 microns ... even if you are not using an oil lubricated compressor it's a good idea.
Drain the compressor regularly too.
GRS and Lindsay are air lubricated precision instruments and what goes into them (as for air) is very important.
Regards,
Chris
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Brian Marshall
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Tool wars and contentions...
Personally, I LIKE a good tool war/argument… and it’s sad to see them discouraged on the forums. Controversial and ordinary differences of opinion should be expressed! It's good for you to compare things. It's good for you to vent your feelings on a subject, just ask your doc.
Been goin’ on since the beginning of time... My girlfriend/boyfriend is better lookin’ than yers. My Chevy’s better/faster than yer Ford. My boat’s better’n yer boat. My knife stays sharper longer’n yers. I can run faster, jump higher, engrave smaller, set more stones per hour, whatever... It's human nature!
I like hearing what others have to say about their tools – good OR bad, and I like to see the sparks flying when they disagree. Barring direct insults to the intelligence of the holder of the opinion… (Indirect ones should be allowed!)
You can also learn things about the people who use them and new tricks that the tools will do - if you read between the lines.
Also the things that they won’t do…
Engraving for a living is not an inherently exciting or dangerous job - and about the only excitement we get - outside of stabbing ourselves once in while – is getting to see someone else do it to themselves or others on the forums!
Shutting everybody up and threatening them with excommunication/deletion/banning is not a good solution.
Has anyone else besides me noticed that the controversial threads get the MOST readers? Why is that? I’m betting the rest of you enjoy ‘em as much as I do!
This is the real world folks. People have MADE choices. People have choices TO make. People have opinions/reasons why they made or are making those choices.
Suppressing/ignoring/holding them back is not doing anyone a favor. It ain't all sweetness and light in this world. It's a balance. Ya gotta look at things from all sides - even the ugly facts that get swept under the rug or hidden.
Stick your head in the sand at your own peril.
As they always say “Just my opinion”…
Brian Marshall
Personally, I LIKE a good tool war/argument… and it’s sad to see them discouraged on the forums. Controversial and ordinary differences of opinion should be expressed! It's good for you to compare things. It's good for you to vent your feelings on a subject, just ask your doc.
Been goin’ on since the beginning of time... My girlfriend/boyfriend is better lookin’ than yers. My Chevy’s better/faster than yer Ford. My boat’s better’n yer boat. My knife stays sharper longer’n yers. I can run faster, jump higher, engrave smaller, set more stones per hour, whatever... It's human nature!
I like hearing what others have to say about their tools – good OR bad, and I like to see the sparks flying when they disagree. Barring direct insults to the intelligence of the holder of the opinion… (Indirect ones should be allowed!)
You can also learn things about the people who use them and new tricks that the tools will do - if you read between the lines.
Also the things that they won’t do…
Engraving for a living is not an inherently exciting or dangerous job - and about the only excitement we get - outside of stabbing ourselves once in while – is getting to see someone else do it to themselves or others on the forums!
Shutting everybody up and threatening them with excommunication/deletion/banning is not a good solution.
Has anyone else besides me noticed that the controversial threads get the MOST readers? Why is that? I’m betting the rest of you enjoy ‘em as much as I do!
This is the real world folks. People have MADE choices. People have choices TO make. People have opinions/reasons why they made or are making those choices.
Suppressing/ignoring/holding them back is not doing anyone a favor. It ain't all sweetness and light in this world. It's a balance. Ya gotta look at things from all sides - even the ugly facts that get swept under the rug or hidden.
Stick your head in the sand at your own peril.
As they always say “Just my opinion”…
Brian Marshall
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Christopher Malouf
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Hey Brian, I'll trade you my best knife for your ..........
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Tom Curran
Elite Cafe Member
I think respectful and helpful comments about the good and bad points of equipment is very helpful, and healthy for the industry. Should GRS or Steve Lindsay read this forum, they will learn how to better serve their clients. We get to see the merits of each system discussed. What's wrong with that?
Should this turn into a free for all, or bashing one maker over another, that is not anything that interests me.
But I don't see any problem with what's been said so far. If I see something nasty, I'll point it out to the moderator, you should, too. It keeps our forum a family place to be.
Tom
Should this turn into a free for all, or bashing one maker over another, that is not anything that interests me.
But I don't see any problem with what's been said so far. If I see something nasty, I'll point it out to the moderator, you should, too. It keeps our forum a family place to be.
Tom
Andrew Biggs
Moderator
Healthy debate yes. Forums are a place to discuss a lot of things, tools included. There certainly isn’t a problem with people pointing out the good and bad points about the tools that they use. Provided they do it politely and with a bit of tact and don’t slag off at what other people like, use and are happy with.
But…………………..
Unfortunately in the past people have used it as an excuse to rip into manufacturers and individuals and get downright rude and nasty about it. In some cases libellous. Sadly I read a comment like that only a couple of days ago. I’ve also seen it turn into nothing more than a school yard brawl with as many verbal bullies getting a kick in where they can using the anonymity of the internet to hide themselves. Feels good if you are the one doing the kicking but not much fun for the victims on the receiving end of it who are just going about there daily business.
I’ve also seen beginners given the wrong information because all they will need is a “such and such†tool and they will be engraving within seconds. Just add water and you become an instant engraver. Some of them are ham-strung right from the beginning with this sort of advice.
The only people that get banned from the forum are those that cross a line. They get plenty of warning and time to rectify the situation and it’s not something done lightly. Nobody gets banned just because they have a contrary point of view or happen to like a particular tool.
Deleted posts are not done lightly either. I’ve done it myself for good reasons and always informed the participants why it’s been done. Posts are never deleted simply because they like certain tools or have contrary ideas about things.
Exchanges of ideas, techniques, tools and philosophy………..yes.
Rude, insulting and intolerant behaviour………….no.
Cheers
Andrew
But…………………..
Unfortunately in the past people have used it as an excuse to rip into manufacturers and individuals and get downright rude and nasty about it. In some cases libellous. Sadly I read a comment like that only a couple of days ago. I’ve also seen it turn into nothing more than a school yard brawl with as many verbal bullies getting a kick in where they can using the anonymity of the internet to hide themselves. Feels good if you are the one doing the kicking but not much fun for the victims on the receiving end of it who are just going about there daily business.
I’ve also seen beginners given the wrong information because all they will need is a “such and such†tool and they will be engraving within seconds. Just add water and you become an instant engraver. Some of them are ham-strung right from the beginning with this sort of advice.
The only people that get banned from the forum are those that cross a line. They get plenty of warning and time to rectify the situation and it’s not something done lightly. Nobody gets banned just because they have a contrary point of view or happen to like a particular tool.
Deleted posts are not done lightly either. I’ve done it myself for good reasons and always informed the participants why it’s been done. Posts are never deleted simply because they like certain tools or have contrary ideas about things.
Exchanges of ideas, techniques, tools and philosophy………..yes.
Rude, insulting and intolerant behaviour………….no.
Cheers
Andrew
Christopher Malouf
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Andrew,
It looks as though a few folks, including myself, have simply interjected some humor. I modified my own post for those out there that just don't understand good ol country humor.
This sort of tool discussion is rather fruitless as there are a good number of individuals with a conflict of interest regarding one preference or another. Many either recognize this or have simply encountered this discussion more often than less. Some of these tool discussions (this vs. that) read more like an infomercial rather than an honest debate of pro vs. con. This ultimately does not help the individual who is trying to make the decision. I experienced this when I posted my 901 issue a while back. Ultimately ... it was almost zero value added and all personal opinion (biased or otherwise). The best advice was from Sam ... something like "the decision is yours".
Well ... nobody snitched (or maybe they did) regarding my sense of humor so I'll assume I've been spared from Captain Cooks authentic reproduction axe falling.
Cheers buddy!!!
Chris
It looks as though a few folks, including myself, have simply interjected some humor. I modified my own post for those out there that just don't understand good ol country humor.
This sort of tool discussion is rather fruitless as there are a good number of individuals with a conflict of interest regarding one preference or another. Many either recognize this or have simply encountered this discussion more often than less. Some of these tool discussions (this vs. that) read more like an infomercial rather than an honest debate of pro vs. con. This ultimately does not help the individual who is trying to make the decision. I experienced this when I posted my 901 issue a while back. Ultimately ... it was almost zero value added and all personal opinion (biased or otherwise). The best advice was from Sam ... something like "the decision is yours".
Well ... nobody snitched (or maybe they did) regarding my sense of humor so I'll assume I've been spared from Captain Cooks authentic reproduction axe falling.
Cheers buddy!!!
Chris
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Tom Curran
Elite Cafe Member
Chris, I can tell a joke from a slur.
I moderate on another forum, and we don't let things get out of hand, ever. Our population knows very well that the forum is tightly moderated, and they behave appropriately. Everyone is very polite, with rare exceptions. No race, no politics, no religious discussion permitted. Take those up privately, please.
If the animals know the cages aren't locked, there will be mayhem in the zoo.
I moderate on another forum, and we don't let things get out of hand, ever. Our population knows very well that the forum is tightly moderated, and they behave appropriately. Everyone is very polite, with rare exceptions. No race, no politics, no religious discussion permitted. Take those up privately, please.
If the animals know the cages aren't locked, there will be mayhem in the zoo.
jlseymour
Elite Cafe Member
Humor...Gota have it...
I'm going to burn one and watch the new born cardinals and doves working on the bird feeder...
No Humor no Fun!!!
Ain't no more to say...
Jerry
Eagles CD "When Hell Freezes Over" "Get over It"...
I'm going to burn one and watch the new born cardinals and doves working on the bird feeder...
No Humor no Fun!!!
Ain't no more to say...
Jerry
Eagles CD "When Hell Freezes Over" "Get over It"...
Christopher Malouf
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Tom, I wasn't taking a cheap shot at you ... after all, you did say this:
Not everyone shares my sense of humor and I found it rather interesting that one particular individual was private messaging and immediately after, Andrew was online and in this thread, posted then logged out.
Maybe I'm just paranoid but I think that not everyone shares our sense of humor.
I'd rather be known for ruffling feathers because I go against the grain and refuse to conform rather than for insults.
Catch ya later Tom, (ya darn Yankee!!)
Chris
Not everyone shares my sense of humor and I found it rather interesting that one particular individual was private messaging and immediately after, Andrew was online and in this thread, posted then logged out.
Maybe I'm just paranoid but I think that not everyone shares our sense of humor.
I'd rather be known for ruffling feathers because I go against the grain and refuse to conform rather than for insults.
Catch ya later Tom, (ya darn Yankee!!
)Chris
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fegarex
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Chris,
I am one to enjoy a little humor and even a little twisted humor. I think it makes things interesting!
I guess I am in disagreement about the post #29 where you state "individuals with conflict of interest" and "reading like an infomercial" when you had a question about your 901. "Those" people mearly answered your question (I was one of them). These people have been running the 901 daily and just answered your question. I try to stay out of any tool wars and only try to answer any tech question I can.
As Sam says, the decision is yours and I assume you now have a Lindsay as you are recommending it?
I am one to enjoy a little humor and even a little twisted humor. I think it makes things interesting!
I guess I am in disagreement about the post #29 where you state "individuals with conflict of interest" and "reading like an infomercial" when you had a question about your 901. "Those" people mearly answered your question (I was one of them). These people have been running the 901 daily and just answered your question. I try to stay out of any tool wars and only try to answer any tech question I can.
As Sam says, the decision is yours and I assume you now have a Lindsay as you are recommending it?
Christopher Malouf
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Oh man .... c'mon Rex!!!
Humor good ... a little controversy not good??? I had a feeling I was gonna get jumped on for that one!!
The fact that folks responded to answer my question was not the issue. I'm very grateful for that. As I recall, the question was specific to a 901 technical issue and soon evolved into a "chioce" discussion.
The question did surface in my mind regarding bias. Some guys have gotten their tools free from one company or the other and others have some sort of teaching agreement or sponsorship. Are they likely to list any of the cons regarding the respective equipment in public forum????
There are very many better engravers than I, doing far better work, using one or the other or both systems. That tends to truly make the decision one of personal preference.
As for the technical aspects of one versus the other ... I think the Lindsay is better. Especially since his latest improvements. Did I get one yet ... nope but I intend to. For money reasons and the time involved in turning my shop upside down running new airlines and such while getting used to a different system is something I can't do immediatly........so I bought a Magnum. For $250 bucks, it simply buys me more time before I HAVE to get the much needed second system.
I can not possibly be the only one to think of this "bias" possibilty regarding corporate special interests when reading these tool discussions. Once again my choice of words may very well be my undoing and I may be the only one to bring it up and get slammed for it. If that's the case, then c'est la vie.
Please don't take your ball and bat Rex!!
Chris
Humor good ... a little controversy not good??? I had a feeling I was gonna get jumped on for that one!!
The fact that folks responded to answer my question was not the issue. I'm very grateful for that. As I recall, the question was specific to a 901 technical issue and soon evolved into a "chioce" discussion.
The question did surface in my mind regarding bias. Some guys have gotten their tools free from one company or the other and others have some sort of teaching agreement or sponsorship. Are they likely to list any of the cons regarding the respective equipment in public forum????
There are very many better engravers than I, doing far better work, using one or the other or both systems. That tends to truly make the decision one of personal preference.
As for the technical aspects of one versus the other ... I think the Lindsay is better. Especially since his latest improvements. Did I get one yet ... nope but I intend to. For money reasons and the time involved in turning my shop upside down running new airlines and such while getting used to a different system is something I can't do immediatly........so I bought a Magnum. For $250 bucks, it simply buys me more time before I HAVE to get the much needed second system.
I can not possibly be the only one to think of this "bias" possibilty regarding corporate special interests when reading these tool discussions. Once again my choice of words may very well be my undoing and I may be the only one to bring it up and get slammed for it. If that's the case, then c'est la vie.
Please don't take your ball and bat Rex!!
Chris
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fegarex
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
I'm not jumping on you. I only wanted my position clear. I just answered your question. If I had piston problems I would have tried to tell you how to solve them. I did not say one was better than another.
For what it is worth..
I got my Gravermax in 1984. I got the 901 and Monarch as soon as they came out, I think somewhere around 7 years ago? And, I did pay for them. I now have a Gravermach but still have the same 901 and Monarch.
Oh.. I still have my ball and bat also.
For what it is worth..
I got my Gravermax in 1984. I got the 901 and Monarch as soon as they came out, I think somewhere around 7 years ago? And, I did pay for them. I now have a Gravermach but still have the same 901 and Monarch.
Oh.. I still have my ball and bat also.
Christopher Malouf
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
I understand completely. There was a lot of great advice in that thread as there is in this thread and I never pointed any fingers at anyone specifically.
As the suggestion of bias is pure conjecture, I sincerely hope that I am not banished or anything like that by the powers that be. It was an honest observation and, I believe, a justifiable question to bring up. Removing any doubt of corporate bias ultimately benefits the art as it helps new entrants make better decisions.
Sometimes I am right, sometimes I am wrong but I am always honest and, at times, brutally honest.
I hope you and others will accept my apology for any personal offense I may have given regarding that earlier "infomercial" comment.
Chris
As the suggestion of bias is pure conjecture, I sincerely hope that I am not banished or anything like that by the powers that be. It was an honest observation and, I believe, a justifiable question to bring up. Removing any doubt of corporate bias ultimately benefits the art as it helps new entrants make better decisions.
Sometimes I am right, sometimes I am wrong but I am always honest and, at times, brutally honest.
I hope you and others will accept my apology for any personal offense I may have given regarding that earlier "infomercial" comment.
Chris
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Christian DeCamillis
Elite Cafe Member
Actually the Grs or the Lindsay cant hold a candle to the best system ever for engraving. The paper and pencil Chris
qndrgnsdd
Elite Cafe Member
right on Chris...after 30+ years I'm still struggling with that paper and pencil..I might add that from my perspective, and i have and do use both systems. If you will take the time and put forth the effort to become proficient with the unpowered hand graver, your powered engraving will improve very much as you develope fine motor control and a "feel' my $.02....................Owen
Christopher Malouf
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
On that note,
I believe I will retire from this discussion and work on my lagging artistic skills. They are indeed lagging and finding instruction on the subject, that isn't available in a book, ain't easy.
Thank-you for the reality check Chris ...
Good day gentlemen,
Chris
I believe I will retire from this discussion and work on my lagging artistic skills. They are indeed lagging and finding instruction on the subject, that isn't available in a book, ain't easy.
Thank-you for the reality check Chris ...
Good day gentlemen,
Chris
Andrew Biggs
Moderator
Hey Chris
Even paranoids have enemies
I received no private message and I was online because I'd just gotten out of bed and that's when I normally have a look at the forum with a cup of tea in hand. Quickly logging off is because I have to get to work or as was the case this morning, zoom away to an appointment.
What I wrote was mereley to clarify why we don't allow tool wars to happen on the forum. We've all seen it before and the damage it has caused. At the end of the day no one wins and everyone loses.
As for humour................well, we could all use a bit more of that in the world
Cheers
Andrew
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