KCSteve
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Actually the Cafe seems to be pretty uncaring about discussions of various systems, just as long as people stay polite.
GRS or Lindsay?
- Thread starter mlurth
- Start date
From a setters point of view. If there is a flawless 200,000.00 Emerald sitting on the bench to
be bezel set into a 18k ring. There is no quest which system I would use to set the stone.
Neither. No power tool is going to touch the ring. When that type of money is on the line,
I only trust myself and what I can do with a hammer an a punch.
It is counter intuitive to use power when the money is really on the line. At least for me or my customers.
I never had anything go wrong with a major and never will.
Jim
be bezel set into a 18k ring. There is no quest which system I would use to set the stone.
Neither. No power tool is going to touch the ring. When that type of money is on the line,
I only trust myself and what I can do with a hammer an a punch.
It is counter intuitive to use power when the money is really on the line. At least for me or my customers.
I never had anything go wrong with a major and never will.
Jim
Andrew Biggs
Moderator
Well Jim
If I had a flawless 200k Emerald to bezel in to an 18k ring.....................I'd give it to you to set
I'd faint just looking at the thing!!!!
Cheers
Andrew
If I had a flawless 200k Emerald to bezel in to an 18k ring.....................I'd give it to you to set
I'd faint just looking at the thing!!!!Cheers
Andrew
Haraga.com
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Oh Jim. Never say never.
I get to roll the dice every time I accept one of these jobs. I want all the Gods on my side and all the
confidence I can muster. The large stones are usually more stable anyway. It's the paper thin opals
you have to worry about.
Power is fine for a $5.00 one point diamonds. If you chip one, so what. A synthetic garnet cab in a heavy bezel,
I use power every time and thank the inventors for making my life easier. The thing is you can put a lot
of pressure on either the above without doing damage.
Leonard when it comes to a stone the may have a lot internal pressure and is just waiting for the setter to
miss calculate. Using power is suicidal and then "never" turns into a "maybe". I simple can't afford maybe.
When rolling an edge of a heavy cross section, using a punch and hammer I can feel every tap and see the
results. Using power is simple to fast and not accurate enough. You can't be sort of in control.
Your customer don't want to hear maybe it will not be damaged.
I guard my reputation because other wise I'll be selling cars.
Understand, I'm not yelling at anyone, but this is serious stuff. I have to take it that way.
Mostly because I like living on the edge. If you don't take any chances , you'll never experience the triumphs.
That's the fun of it.
Talk to ya later,
Jim
confidence I can muster. The large stones are usually more stable anyway. It's the paper thin opals
you have to worry about.
Power is fine for a $5.00 one point diamonds. If you chip one, so what. A synthetic garnet cab in a heavy bezel,
I use power every time and thank the inventors for making my life easier. The thing is you can put a lot
of pressure on either the above without doing damage.
Leonard when it comes to a stone the may have a lot internal pressure and is just waiting for the setter to
miss calculate. Using power is suicidal and then "never" turns into a "maybe". I simple can't afford maybe.
When rolling an edge of a heavy cross section, using a punch and hammer I can feel every tap and see the
results. Using power is simple to fast and not accurate enough. You can't be sort of in control.
Your customer don't want to hear maybe it will not be damaged.
I guard my reputation because other wise I'll be selling cars.
Understand, I'm not yelling at anyone, but this is serious stuff. I have to take it that way.
Mostly because I like living on the edge. If you don't take any chances , you'll never experience the triumphs.
That's the fun of it.
Talk to ya later,
Jim
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Right-on Chris DeCamillis. Perseverance with pencil & sketchbook should be a top priority of the serious hand engraver. While there are a variety of tools, chisels, and handpieces that can incise lines into metal, knowing what to do with those lines can make the difference between mediocre and great work. All the latest and greatest high-tech tools combined can't turn bad or average engraving into good engraving. A graver is to steel what a pencil is to a sketchpad, and is only as good as the person using it.
Yes, this is true. Sorry to disappoint anyone who thrives on drama and controversy, but you won't find it in our Cafe. You are absolutely free to discuss tools or anything else, but if includes flaming or insulting individuals or companies then it violates the Rules.
Cheers / ~Sam
Yes, this is true. Sorry to disappoint anyone who thrives on drama and controversy, but you won't find it in our Cafe. You are absolutely free to discuss tools or anything else, but if includes flaming or insulting individuals or companies then it violates the Rules.
Cheers / ~Sam
I have maintained a life-long "love-hate" relationship with my pencil(s)........
and if that relationship ever disolves..........it's cause I'm dead...I hope..!!
As long as I can maintain a reasonable control over it..the rest will fall into place,....
and Life iz Guud..
and if that relationship ever disolves..........it's cause I'm dead...I hope..!!
As long as I can maintain a reasonable control over it..the rest will fall into place,....
and Life iz Guud..
Brian Marshall
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Hi Jim,
You have your preferences, I have mine. I would choose differently. I think it is a matter of confidence and familiarity with your tools – whatever they may be.
In my case - 30 years of using pneumatics for engraving and stone setting gives me both the familiarity and the confidence.
(And this is in spite of having very little feeling left in my setting hand, and wearing a sling hung from the ceiling to support my shoulder while working)
Brian
You have your preferences, I have mine. I would choose differently. I think it is a matter of confidence and familiarity with your tools – whatever they may be.
In my case - 30 years of using pneumatics for engraving and stone setting gives me both the familiarity and the confidence.
(And this is in spite of having very little feeling left in my setting hand, and wearing a sling hung from the ceiling to support my shoulder while working)
Brian
Brian Marshall
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Chris, I took your joke as it was meant Too bad some stuffy folk jumped on you for it. However, the knife has not been made yet that I'd swap for the lady I've got...
Brian
Too bad some stuffy folk jumped on you for it. However, the knife has not been made yet that I'd swap for the lady I've got...Brian
Point taken Brian. That's what make the business interesting.
I like the challenge of a clear sheet of paper and pencil. My only regret is that I didn't practise when I
younger as much as I would like now. There is alway enough time to re-invent yourself. Funny thing
about talking on forums, my typing and spelling have improved, a lot. Practise, Practise, Practise..............
I make that Elite 1000 yet.
Jim
I like the challenge of a clear sheet of paper and pencil. My only regret is that I didn't practise when I
younger as much as I would like now. There is alway enough time to re-invent yourself. Funny thing
about talking on forums, my typing and spelling have improved, a lot. Practise, Practise, Practise..............
I make that Elite 1000 yet.
Jim
Brian Marshall
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Long boring post – good bedtime reading...
I will have to put this up in installments because of the sheer size of it. Here goes…
I am going to relate everything specifically to this thread, listing the post number and specific line. I will also try to keep the facts and my personal opinions separated as I write.
Let’s start with the mention) of bias… and “influence”… and get that hurdle out of the way.
Post #34 – quote –“The question did surface in my mind regarding bias. Some guys have gotten their tools free from one company or the other and others have some sort of teaching agreement or sponsorship. Are they likely to list any of the cons regarding the respective equipment in public forum????”
Do I fit in this category? Let’s see…
1. Hand engraving has supplied a large part of my income throughout most of my 38 years at the bench. I say “most” because there were a few tough years when it was physically difficult/impossible to engrave.
2. I began to engrave in 1968. I engraved my first “paid for” job in 1969. I bought a Gravermeister somewhere back in the early 70’s. (Serial #213) I still have it, as well as my original Max. I have bought and continue to buy GRS products to this day. Not as many as I once did, because gradually there have been other suppliers entering the market with what I consider to be equal or better quality products. (Opinion)
3. I used GRS power assisted tools and equipment on my engraving bench exclusively for 20 plus years.
4. I purchased my first Lindsay Chasing AirGraver a little over 8 years ago.
5. I was so impressed by the Lindsay tools, that they are now the only pneumatic engraving tools on my personal benches.
6. I am a “little guy”. When given a choice of two suppliers of similar quality products and one is a corporation and the other is another “little guy” (all other factors being equal) – I will buy from the little guy, because I AM one! An example might be bent NGraver lined gravers. In my opinion, for the work I do that calls for liners, and for the students I teach to sharpen and use them – there is no better liner made – anywhere on the planet. (Opinion)
7. I have taught engraving workshops for a little over 8 years. I do not sell tools. Never have. I just teach. I do include graver blanks, GRS handles, practice materials, and (for the past 3 years) a transfer kit in my workshop packages. (Opinion/observation) During these 8 years I would guess that about 300 students went home and bought at least a power hone and accessories from GRS. If each student only purchased an average sharpening setup of $500, that would equal $150,000. (quite a few spent thousands more than that) I have never received a word of recognition, nor thanks from GRS.
8. We give out GRS catalogs at every engraving workshop I do.
9. As of a little over a year ago, GRS began giving me a small discount. These days it about covers the shipping costs. This came after some 30 + years as a customer and recently an unpaid/unofficial agent.
10. Lindsay matched the GRS discount. And I give out Lindsay flyers too. I would give out NGravers’ catalogs, but it seems I cannot get them? However, their contact information is printed in the notebook that is included with every workshop - along with every major/minor supplier of metalsmithing and engraving tools & supplies that I can find.
I have never thought that this small discount might appear to compromise my integrity, fairness, or influence me in other ways. I am being treated identically by both of the most popular tool manufacturers. It certainly does not change my purchasing decisions or the way in which each company’s merchandise is presented to the students. I buy what I need when I need it or can afford it. What do you, the readers - think? Should I feel somehow guilty about this recent development? Should I give up what amounts to free shipping? After all, I supply their products at my expense to my students who then become their customers. Most of them for life… (Opinion)
11. I have never received a check or payment of any kind from GRS, Lindsay, NGraver, LeTourneau, etc. Not for services rendered, not for sales commissions, not for anything!
On the other hand, I have written many, many thousands of dollars worth of checks to both GRS and Lindsay.
12. Neither GRS nor Lindsay have given me "free" systems. I beleive both have sent me graver blank samples over the years. Lindsay has always maintained his equipment for free or sent me the part I needed. (Mostly "O" rings and thumbscrews) GRS rebuilt a Max for me a couple months before the Mach came out. I think it was a couple hundred bucks plus shipping both ways.
13. The classroom here has every hand engraving related tool that I have been able to collect over almost 40 years. These are here for students to try out, to “test drive”. GRS, Lindsay, Ngraver, LeTourneau, etc., etc… A student can ask to try out anything at their bench during a workshop. My job is to teach them, and in doing so - show them everything that is available, and what their options are. They make their own decisions and then they contact the company they choose to deal with. With NO sales pressure from the instructors or anyone else on the premises.
14. Steve Lindsay has provided to those who teach independently – and who qualify by providing their students with the opportunity to try out his tools - space on one of his webpages. Ours was the first school that qualified. (I was also the first person ever authorized to teach the patented Lindsay grind.)
Steve gains by getting his tools exposed to more people in an environment where they can really try them out. We gain by getting a bit more Internet exposure for the workshops. We are not in direct competition. I sell no tools, Lindsay does not teach. GRS has never offered to share website space, probably because even as small as we are, we are viewed as competition? Do you, the readers - think that this is a “sponsorship” arrangement?
15. I appeared at the first FEGA show Steve Lindsay ever did. And I was at his table. There is a story behind this…
I had spent three solid years constantly trying to get him to go to a show, because I was so impressed with his tools – and I knew that others would be too. When he finally gave in and committed to doing the show, he had one condition – since I had talked him into doing it, I had to promise to be there too. I kept that promise. The FEGA officers at the time knew what it took for me to get him to come. I wore two badges at that show – my own and his company badge. His "exhibitor" badge allowed me into the showroom early and I could stay later than the “public” or "members". I paid ALL of my own expenses to get there, stay there, and get back home. I was already a member, so it was free to get in. I believe Steve Lindsay bought one dinner for an entire table at which I was a guest. I have not been to another FEGA show since then.
16. I showed up at the Atlanta Blade Show 3 years ago – for one day. Again, I paid all of my own expenses to get there, stay there, and get back home. I paid for my own admission. I was around the Lindsay exhibit for 3 hours jawing with everybody. Spent the rest of the day wandering the tables. I believe that Steve might have paid for Ray Covers’ and my own breakfast. I do remember we ate together. Not sure about that one…
So, am I biased or influenced by one company or the other - on a strictly business/professional level?
I think not. You make your own decision, now that you know these things.
Unless a flurry of comments, questions, or suggestions need to be addressed, I will start to make some observations/comparisons first part of next week…
Brian Marshall
Stockton Jewelry Arts School
Stockton, CA USA 95209
209-477-0550
instructor@jewelryartschool.com
I will have to put this up in installments because of the sheer size of it. Here goes…
I am going to relate everything specifically to this thread, listing the post number and specific line. I will also try to keep the facts and my personal opinions separated as I write.
Let’s start with the mention) of bias… and “influence”… and get that hurdle out of the way.
Post #34 – quote –“The question did surface in my mind regarding bias. Some guys have gotten their tools free from one company or the other and others have some sort of teaching agreement or sponsorship. Are they likely to list any of the cons regarding the respective equipment in public forum????”
Do I fit in this category? Let’s see…
1. Hand engraving has supplied a large part of my income throughout most of my 38 years at the bench. I say “most” because there were a few tough years when it was physically difficult/impossible to engrave.
2. I began to engrave in 1968. I engraved my first “paid for” job in 1969. I bought a Gravermeister somewhere back in the early 70’s. (Serial #213) I still have it, as well as my original Max. I have bought and continue to buy GRS products to this day. Not as many as I once did, because gradually there have been other suppliers entering the market with what I consider to be equal or better quality products. (Opinion)
3. I used GRS power assisted tools and equipment on my engraving bench exclusively for 20 plus years.
4. I purchased my first Lindsay Chasing AirGraver a little over 8 years ago.
5. I was so impressed by the Lindsay tools, that they are now the only pneumatic engraving tools on my personal benches.
6. I am a “little guy”. When given a choice of two suppliers of similar quality products and one is a corporation and the other is another “little guy” (all other factors being equal) – I will buy from the little guy, because I AM one! An example might be bent NGraver lined gravers. In my opinion, for the work I do that calls for liners, and for the students I teach to sharpen and use them – there is no better liner made – anywhere on the planet. (Opinion)
7. I have taught engraving workshops for a little over 8 years. I do not sell tools. Never have. I just teach. I do include graver blanks, GRS handles, practice materials, and (for the past 3 years) a transfer kit in my workshop packages. (Opinion/observation) During these 8 years I would guess that about 300 students went home and bought at least a power hone and accessories from GRS. If each student only purchased an average sharpening setup of $500, that would equal $150,000. (quite a few spent thousands more than that) I have never received a word of recognition, nor thanks from GRS.
8. We give out GRS catalogs at every engraving workshop I do.
9. As of a little over a year ago, GRS began giving me a small discount. These days it about covers the shipping costs. This came after some 30 + years as a customer and recently an unpaid/unofficial agent.
10. Lindsay matched the GRS discount. And I give out Lindsay flyers too. I would give out NGravers’ catalogs, but it seems I cannot get them? However, their contact information is printed in the notebook that is included with every workshop - along with every major/minor supplier of metalsmithing and engraving tools & supplies that I can find.
I have never thought that this small discount might appear to compromise my integrity, fairness, or influence me in other ways. I am being treated identically by both of the most popular tool manufacturers. It certainly does not change my purchasing decisions or the way in which each company’s merchandise is presented to the students. I buy what I need when I need it or can afford it. What do you, the readers - think? Should I feel somehow guilty about this recent development? Should I give up what amounts to free shipping? After all, I supply their products at my expense to my students who then become their customers. Most of them for life… (Opinion)
11. I have never received a check or payment of any kind from GRS, Lindsay, NGraver, LeTourneau, etc. Not for services rendered, not for sales commissions, not for anything!
On the other hand, I have written many, many thousands of dollars worth of checks to both GRS and Lindsay.
12. Neither GRS nor Lindsay have given me "free" systems. I beleive both have sent me graver blank samples over the years. Lindsay has always maintained his equipment for free or sent me the part I needed. (Mostly "O" rings and thumbscrews) GRS rebuilt a Max for me a couple months before the Mach came out. I think it was a couple hundred bucks plus shipping both ways.
13. The classroom here has every hand engraving related tool that I have been able to collect over almost 40 years. These are here for students to try out, to “test drive”. GRS, Lindsay, Ngraver, LeTourneau, etc., etc… A student can ask to try out anything at their bench during a workshop. My job is to teach them, and in doing so - show them everything that is available, and what their options are. They make their own decisions and then they contact the company they choose to deal with. With NO sales pressure from the instructors or anyone else on the premises.
14. Steve Lindsay has provided to those who teach independently – and who qualify by providing their students with the opportunity to try out his tools - space on one of his webpages. Ours was the first school that qualified. (I was also the first person ever authorized to teach the patented Lindsay grind.)
Steve gains by getting his tools exposed to more people in an environment where they can really try them out. We gain by getting a bit more Internet exposure for the workshops. We are not in direct competition. I sell no tools, Lindsay does not teach. GRS has never offered to share website space, probably because even as small as we are, we are viewed as competition? Do you, the readers - think that this is a “sponsorship” arrangement?
15. I appeared at the first FEGA show Steve Lindsay ever did. And I was at his table. There is a story behind this…
I had spent three solid years constantly trying to get him to go to a show, because I was so impressed with his tools – and I knew that others would be too. When he finally gave in and committed to doing the show, he had one condition – since I had talked him into doing it, I had to promise to be there too. I kept that promise. The FEGA officers at the time knew what it took for me to get him to come. I wore two badges at that show – my own and his company badge. His "exhibitor" badge allowed me into the showroom early and I could stay later than the “public” or "members". I paid ALL of my own expenses to get there, stay there, and get back home. I was already a member, so it was free to get in. I believe Steve Lindsay bought one dinner for an entire table at which I was a guest. I have not been to another FEGA show since then.
16. I showed up at the Atlanta Blade Show 3 years ago – for one day. Again, I paid all of my own expenses to get there, stay there, and get back home. I paid for my own admission. I was around the Lindsay exhibit for 3 hours jawing with everybody. Spent the rest of the day wandering the tables. I believe that Steve might have paid for Ray Covers’ and my own breakfast. I do remember we ate together. Not sure about that one…
So, am I biased or influenced by one company or the other - on a strictly business/professional level?
I think not. You make your own decision, now that you know these things.
Unless a flurry of comments, questions, or suggestions need to be addressed, I will start to make some observations/comparisons first part of next week…
Brian Marshall
Stockton Jewelry Arts School
Stockton, CA USA 95209
209-477-0550
instructor@jewelryartschool.com
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Tim Wells
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Wiser words never spoken and something none of us can do enough of.
Tim Wells
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
That is very comprehensive, well thought out and interesting reading there Brian. I can hardly wait for the next installment of your continuing saga. (that's a little humor there) I like to understand things in depth so obviously this is a good read. Thanks for going to the trouble.
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Brian Marshall
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
OK Tim,
We all know I'll never win any awards for "diplomacy".... Let's get to it.
Brian
P.S. The title of the post shoulda warned you off... (MY little joke)
We all know I'll never win any awards for "diplomacy".... Let's get to it.
Brian
P.S. The title of the post shoulda warned you off... (MY little joke)
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tldcowboygear
Member
Howdy Folks,
I may not be real qualified to weigh in here based on years of experience or artistic talent but my route to the current equipment I use is interesting to say the least.
The spur maker that I began learning from recommended the GRS System 3. I rushed right out and ordered one. When I bought it I did very little investigation, to be truthful I did not even have enough knowledge to know how to investigate. I did not know anything about forums or other information sources. The folks at GRS showed me some work that had been done by others with the System 3 and it looked good to me. I bought her and began practicing. I made quite a few things and really thought the system was ok.
I then attended an basic engraving school where the only machines available were the GRS GraverMax. I instantly felt the difference and as soon as I could afford one, this is the system that I got. The truth is that as everyone has said, the tools don't make the artist, but it did speed up my learning curve somewhat. This is the system that I still use.
I was put in a position where I did not have access to ANY engraving equipment due to my work location. I whined on several forums. I got the best advice I have had in a long time - Get a pencil, pad, some excellent training books and DRAW, DRAW, DRAW. This I did. I agree wholeheartedly with those that have stated in this thread that the pencil and paper are probably the most important tool I need to be using.
This forum as well as others are great sources for information. Wished I had known that a few years ago.
Brian, I really respect your response. I also admire you for having a range of tools at your school for students to try. That is awesome and would have saved me nearly the cost of your school in tool costs.
Thanks for your post.
D.C.
I may not be real qualified to weigh in here based on years of experience or artistic talent but my route to the current equipment I use is interesting to say the least.
The spur maker that I began learning from recommended the GRS System 3. I rushed right out and ordered one. When I bought it I did very little investigation, to be truthful I did not even have enough knowledge to know how to investigate. I did not know anything about forums or other information sources. The folks at GRS showed me some work that had been done by others with the System 3 and it looked good to me. I bought her and began practicing. I made quite a few things and really thought the system was ok.
I then attended an basic engraving school where the only machines available were the GRS GraverMax. I instantly felt the difference and as soon as I could afford one, this is the system that I got. The truth is that as everyone has said, the tools don't make the artist, but it did speed up my learning curve somewhat. This is the system that I still use.
I was put in a position where I did not have access to ANY engraving equipment due to my work location. I whined on several forums. I got the best advice I have had in a long time - Get a pencil, pad, some excellent training books and DRAW, DRAW, DRAW. This I did. I agree wholeheartedly with those that have stated in this thread that the pencil and paper are probably the most important tool I need to be using.
This forum as well as others are great sources for information. Wished I had known that a few years ago.
Brian, I really respect your response. I also admire you for having a range of tools at your school for students to try. That is awesome and would have saved me nearly the cost of your school in tool costs.
Thanks for your post.
D.C.
Christopher Malouf
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Brian,
Congratulations, you definitely win the "giant spoon" award ..... if ya what I mean there buddy.
It's my honor (and I am grateful) to humbly and respectfully pass it on to you.
Now ... I must get back to Chris DeCamillis' excellent suggestion................
Many positive and constructive things to do and so little time .................................................................................
Congratulations, you definitely win the "giant spoon" award ..... if ya what I mean there buddy.
It's my honor (and I am grateful) to humbly and respectfully pass it on to you.
Now ... I must get back to Chris DeCamillis' excellent suggestion................
Many positive and constructive things to do and so little time .................................................................................
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Brian Marshall
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Grand Canyon
Well Chris,
You keep the spoon, but could ya send me a balancing pole for the tightrope? And maybe a metal detector for the minefield? Please FedEx 'em overnight!
Brian
Well Chris,
You keep the spoon, but could ya send me a balancing pole for the tightrope? And maybe a metal detector for the minefield? Please FedEx 'em overnight!
Brian
Tim Wells
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
OK Tim,
We all know I'll never win any awards for "diplomacy".... Let's get to it.
Where do you see the controversy? In the facts, the opinions, or the observations I've written so far?
Brian
P.S. The title of the post shoulda warned you off... (MY little joke)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From your post #25
"Personally, I LIKE a good tool war/argument… and it’s sad to see them discouraged on the forums. Controversial and ordinary differences of opinion should be expressed! It's good for you to compare things."
This is what I was originally referring to but it was a post further back in the thread. Regardless, I'm ready for chapter II.
To answer the original question that started this thread I'll add the following:
I originally had a Gravermeister, didn't like the racket. Sam Welch used one for over 30 years and we all know the high level of his work so right there is proof in the puddin' so to speak that the tool ain't what makes the art so much as the hand and mind and the eyes that coordinate the two.
Next I wound up with one of the first classic Lindsay hand pieces with the old cast iron foot pedal. I had it but was so busy building airplanes for Boeing, coming home and working on 8 day aircraft clocks and watches till late, and on weekends flying my plane up to some other guys air strip and doing annual inspections and maintenance on their airplanes that the tool saw little use. When Boeing laid me and 30,000 others off I scurried and moved a lot so things were in storage a long time.
Finally, I settled in Georgia and sold the older Lindsay and got the newer version of the Classic, and about that same time I picked up a Graver Max. I tried them both out and grew to dislike the Graver Max due mainly to the noise and the way it felt in my hand. It did the job well though, I had a 901 that got the most use. I might add here that after 25 years as an airplane mechanic and using air tools I absolutely hate the sound of a hose leaking air, it just irritates the heck out of me. So that is why the Graver Max foot pedal even after being rebuilt and updated with a newer valve got sold eventually. By the time it went away I was only using it for stippling anyway.
There is nothing to knock about a Graver Max and I like the new Graver Mach even better but it came down to a matter of preference. Since I had aquired an Artisan hand piece that Lindsay had came out with shortly before I deligated it for stippling use and thus had no more use for the Max. Selling it helped me gather the funds to purchase the ultimate in function and design from a tool freak standpoint which was the Palm Control handle that Steve fit to my existing Classic hand piece. Now since I have become more serious about doing this for income but more importantly making the best art I can, I have nothing but Lindsay air tools but still have my Magna Block and Power hone.
So, there's the answer to the original question. I chose the Lindsay for me. Why?
1. Because I like having one hand piece that will do what all those others I had to buy seperately for the Max did.
2. I love, not like, the way it feels in my hand, the way it purrs so subtly waiting for me to "hit the gas". The adjustability on the fly right there on the hand piece, not on a box an arms length away.
3. I like that there is no leaking air noise even with the foot pedal version.
4. It doesn't vibrate as much as the GRS hand pieces did because it has no spring in the bore.
5. Customer support is unequalled anywhere on the planet regardless of the company or product.
6. Total satisfaction with no buyers remorse or "I wish it would do this or that" type of thing. It's about as flawless as you can get in a tool or machine of any kind.
7. The cost of a Lindsay classic setup is about the same as a Graver Max and a couple of hand pieces so cost is basically a wash.
In short it is like what everyone has said already, personal preference, simple as that.
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Brian Marshall
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Perfect!
YEAH!
THIS IS WHAT I'M TRYING TO PROMOTE! No arguments - just your own experiences - good or bad.
See Andrew? It CAN be done! (But I still gotta lotta ground to cover without getting blown up)
Brian
YEAH!
THIS IS WHAT I'M TRYING TO PROMOTE! No arguments - just your own experiences - good or bad.
See Andrew? It CAN be done! (But I still gotta lotta ground to cover without getting blown up)
Brian
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Brian Marshall
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
OK, got a couple private emails. I’ll answer them here. First one says that what they’ve read seems slightly bent towards Lindsay, and rougher on GRS.
This was the whole point in this installment. Those were MY experiences. Do you see that? If a company wants you or me to have a better experience, then they know what to do – simply give us one. (or even two) If it’s over the top, you can bet I’ll write about it!
I am going to place a medium sized order with GRS on Monday. I fully expect that I will get the same competent, pleasant service from Lynda Schreck that I always have. That’s her job and she does it extremely well. She does not make policy and I understand that.
Second one says I’m making Steve look like a candidate for sainthood. Well, I’m not! I know him well enough to know that he puts on his pants the same as all the rest of us. One leg at a time. And he’s about got my award for the most stubborn guy I’ve ever met! The argument going on at the moment between us is a BIG one. And private.
Third one says that I am as biased as can be… That’s fine with me. That’s what I’m looking for! I asked you to tell me and you’re telling me what you think. I can’t get mad ‘cause I don’t like it! (Well if I do, I can’t do it on the forum) I promised Andrew that there would be no fights, and I’ll keep that promise on my part. If anybody really wants to fight, email me and we’ll do it. I promise...
Fourth one says I should not be taking advantage of Steve’s webpage. That’s it. Not enough info here.
What I need to know is why? I already have his tools and I have GRS’s. He offers the perk, they don’t. Simple. Nothing to get excited over…
Gotta go cook my family dinner, they're waiting. May come back later, may not.
Brian
This was the whole point in this installment. Those were MY experiences. Do you see that? If a company wants you or me to have a better experience, then they know what to do – simply give us one. (or even two)
If it’s over the top, you can bet I’ll write about it!I am going to place a medium sized order with GRS on Monday. I fully expect that I will get the same competent, pleasant service from Lynda Schreck that I always have. That’s her job and she does it extremely well. She does not make policy and I understand that.
Second one says I’m making Steve look like a candidate for sainthood. Well, I’m not! I know him well enough to know that he puts on his pants the same as all the rest of us. One leg at a time. And he’s about got my award for the most stubborn guy I’ve ever met! The argument going on at the moment between us is a BIG one. And private.
Third one says that I am as biased as can be… That’s fine with me.
That’s what I’m looking for! I asked you to tell me and you’re telling me what you think. I can’t get mad ‘cause I don’t like it! (Well if I do, I can’t do it on the forum) I promised Andrew that there would be no fights, and I’ll keep that promise on my part. If anybody really wants to fight, email me and we’ll do it. I promise...Fourth one says I should not be taking advantage of Steve’s webpage. That’s it. Not enough info here.
What I need to know is why? I already have his tools and I have GRS’s. He offers the perk, they don’t. Simple. Nothing to get excited over…
Gotta go cook my family dinner, they're waiting. May come back later, may not.
Brian
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