GRS or Lindsay?

[carl bleile]

I believe a begining cutter would have a hard time telling the difference between the two air tools(with foot controls) I bought the GRS pc unit, airtec, all the tubing and stuff needed, cann"t say I was happy. the little air flap thats in the plastic add on was hard to get in the right spot and keep it fhere, also I didn't like changing my grip to activate it or again to stop it.The air flow is regulated by how much your hand is covering the air hole in the handle. my best use is with the finger control and I only use this when I have to stand up to cut.
My brother (Roger) and I could switch between the two air tools with foot control and be relaxed and cutting in minutes I think this is because we both started with h&c, and push tools. It's not so much the tools as learning how to use them.
Ive included pictures of a Savage 99 I engraved in 1979 (nobody likes to show their old work!) I used h$c,and push tools. a lot of the work would have been faster, easier on the body, and most likely better if either air tool would have been available. Both tools are a plus to new or experierced engravers, they let me work easier and be more creative.
I know it would be nice if everyone said buy this one or that but it's a close call, ill use anything that helps me to work better, I still use my Ngraver a lot when i really want the chips to hit the floor.
Carl Bleile
Cincinnati, Ohio
I wish my brother (Roger) would say a few words he's a heck of a lot better getting the point across!!!!

 

[jlseymour]

Tim and Brian
Ya'll have put the Lindsay system where it should be...
Why don't you ever see one For Sale and why are so many of the Masters here and around the world saying so many great things and starting to using the Lindsay System even the push and hammer engravers???
I have no regrets that I went to basic GRS school and bought their equiptment, it got me into engraving and opened my eyes to the world of engraving...
When I used the Palm Control at Ray Covers School I was Hooked, I tried to get Steve to send one next day but there's none on the shelf waiting for buyers... I had to wait for 2 weeks and the day Steve called and said he shipped I was like a kid getting his first bike waiting the 2 days for the mail...
All said it is a Great tool, but it will not make you any better than your input into engraving...
Jerry

 

[JT Kinney]

Jerry,

You hit this rite on the head, a tool is just that "a tool....." It takes TIME, PRATICE, DRAWING, AND MORE DRAWING to use the tool which ever type it may be. Your talent comes from within, and is only set down on steel through the tool. I have only been engraving for about 4 years now ( I should say learning to engrave), and every time I check into the forum I learn a new lesson, Before this lesson is put to pratice I draw it untill I feel I can cut in the same respect as it was presented. If I may quote Chris D. "paper, and pencil" drew, draw, and draw some more.

Thank You for taking time to read my babbel.
JT

 

[FANCYGUN]

I was told this by my professor when in college and I always tell it to my students.......

"Painting, sculpting. ENGRAVING, "et al " are mearly your dialect. Drawing is your language. Draw every day"

 

[jimzim75]

Well, I think Brian has set a good tone for the discussion on what's happening with power engraving.
As you know probable I use the Lindsay and the GRS systems. I Used GRS since about 1990 and went
right into using a GraverMax. I skipped the Gravermeister and mate, they being just lesser versions of Max.

Till about 2000 I was just playing and learning. In about 2003 wanting to get a step up on the others
in the shop I developed engraving for the side of rings, and did some twenty different patterns.
That's when I got serious about this stuff. Mostly because it was really selling.

To that point I had use GRS Max and used the 801 mostly. Then Sam started the Café and I started reading.
I had joined the Lindsay Forum before but hadn't really paid to much attention. I thought I would never
buy one of his tools because they just to expensive. So reading the forum was not worth while.

It wasn't to long after Café started that the first tool debates also started. I was pretty firmly in the
GRS camp mostly because I had spent so much. The chatter continued about the Lindsay system.
So I actually started reading the Lindsay forum. Enough was said that I finally decided to give myself
a Christmas present for 2007.



I started learning and playing with this system and like the feel of the tool. I'm still learning by the way.
The tool discussions droned on, so I actually started looking at how the two were made and functioned.

The Airtact came out, so since it was relatively cheap, I bought one. I really didn't tell the wife because
this was doubling up on one idea. Hey, you read what people say so you want to see if your missing
something.

I thought my GRS system was pretty good in that I had gotten Mac and I had a check valve that Sam had
show us at Glendo during one of the classes. So I got the Airtact home and tried it out with the Mac
I tried the bias valve to see what it did. In my opinion it not very useful. (If I upgrade my second Max it
will be to a Max SC and not the Mac.)

The airtact as far as I could see wasn't doing anything more that what I already had. I found the extra
tubing and flap truly annoying. The Mac actually lost capacity in the 6000 to 8000 range to actually not
function.

Having looked at the whole system, I knew where the problems were. I tried miner fixes like putting stiffer
hose on. It wasn't helping. So not wanting the Mac performance limited, I took off the Airtact and got a
refund. Besides the Mac could do more now that I had stiffened up the hoses to the foot pedal, bonus.

GRS system really hasn't changed since the Max to much, except for the extra range up to 8000 in Max SC
and Mac. They keep making new housings. I think they should do this years model in royal blue with bright
yellow pin striping. I sure someone will find the bias feature useful.




Lindsay system performs well and feels good. It only has a couple weak spots. Instant full power take offs,
it can't do because it not designed that way. The Lindsay has a good hammer ability but is still not as
strong as GRS hammers. Besides I don't really like the idea of using a tool that built so well to do heavy
hammering. I worry that it's ability to do fine work might eventually suffer.

Since I have tools from GRS that are actually designed to do the job. Why use the Palm for heavy duty
hammering. I will use the tool for what it can do the best. Engraving. I sure the gun engravers don't
think it's underpowered for inlay 24k but I do heavy cross section in 14k white gold. All day.
It's not the same thing.

Putting in the tungsten piston and setting the regulator does give the tool ability to engrave heavy cross
sections. It engraves deeply very well. That is not the same type of use as hammering. Personally I consider
hammering to be harsh use of power in this tool. I simply don't like using it at maximum power all day. That's a personal choice. To replace a Magnum is $300.00. To replace a Palm is $1800.00.......Money talks.

Steve asked "What are you talking about instant powered takeoff. What would you use them for?"
I will try to explain. When bright cutting you can be taking a pretty heavy cross section.
You may wish to stop for a sudden direction change. 90° turn or better.
The ramping up to speed with Palm isn't best suited for this. You need full power instantly.
Or should I say, I do and it's the way I like to work.

I'm quite sure that other engravers have other way to do the same thing, I can only speak for myself.
I haven't really heard a lot of other setters talk about methods and techniques on any forum.
I know one thing is that my style make money and for me, that's what most important to me.

I tend to use the Lindsay more for common engraving choirs in that it starts slow and get up to speed.
This is more engraving friendly for fine work. Because time is an issue with most of my jobs, I will picked
a GRS tool because it already has bit I need chucked up. I thus have three power hand pieces
to use on a job. Each system I try to use for what it does best.
I do lean toward the Palm because it more intuitive to use it. It's the tool that I use as my first choice.

Personally, I think purist tend to cut their choices in half when they get rid of one system for the other.
To each his own, this is the way I do it. There are much better engravers than myself, I'm no master.
I just talk a lot. I can tell you there are no better setters. (A mind set you must have to do the job.)





The state of power engraving as far as air driven hand-pieces goes, I think is at its highest point.
There are no more different type of system to exploit. I could be wrong, but I don' think so.

If there are any great leaps to be made they will be with DC motors and Electric/Nematic hybrids.
For the time being what you have is Lindsay and GRS, that is what will be around for a while.
I know neither company wants this said, but I don't want either to stop making tools.
A monopoly is bad for power engraving.
Toolmakers will never come up with the next great wave if there is a monopoly.

The tool discussion will never go away. I tried to change the subject because, I don't think it helps really
to hurt one another with malice or innocently. We as a group are drawn to talk about this subject and always
will be. That's the way people are made.

Jim

 

[Christopher Malouf]

Brian ... looks like I will keep that big sppon after all. Can't help you with the balance pole ... fedex has a length limit and my mine detector won't go deep enough!!

Anyway ... great comments here. Fantastic to read.


A monopoly is bad period. It's one thing to control the industry but something else to actually control the industry to where it can impact the growth of the art or intellectual aspect (positive or negative). Even if that influence is extremely positive, that puts a lot of power into the hands of a few. We see this with the price and availability of information. It's very similar in structure to other industries and fields of study .... definitely moreso there. (Microsoft quickly comes to mind since I used to work with them).

With engraving ... reviving a dying art has been the result that I have seen so far (very extremely positive). Finding and getting access to ALL the info needed for advancement through self study is still difficult. I think this will change as individuals write more books in addition to holding classes....and it will be the market economy that will drive that. Always a good thing.

Back to my pencil. (boy these forums can be addictive).

Chris

 

[Sam]

Jim: You make some good points. Long live competition! The reason the finest engraving in the world is being done today is because engravers keep outdoing each other and raising the benchmark, taking our art to places it's never been.

Our pneumatic tools are the best they've ever been because the benchmark keeps getting raised, making them the better than we ever dreamed possible. Photographic equipment is better than ever because of Canon and Nikon competition. Cars are better because of Toyota and Nissan and Ford and Chevy. Guitars are better because of Martin and Taylor. This list goes on forever.

We can all rejoice and reap the rewards of better equipment that makes our work more enjoyable and more profitable.

Life is good.

~Sam

 

[Roger Bleile]

MLURTH,

You started this thread several days ago but we haven't heard anything from you since 6/19. Please tell us if your original question has been answered or has this lenghty discussion gotten so far afield that you have simply lost interest. What is your take away from all this?

Thanks,

Roger

 

[Brian Marshall]

Everybody had enough already?

Yup, it'd be nice to know whether it's worth putting up the next installment...

Brian

 

[CJ Allan]

Absolutly Brian...
This thread is definatly being read ..
I like it...........

Thanks....

 

[jimzim75]

Ya Brian,
Let's hear the next installment.
Jim

 

[Brian Marshall]

Aw Jim...

You're not gonna make me put it to music too?

You definitely do not want to hear the stuff I listen to all day at the bench! Wrong language, anyway...

B.

 

[jimzim75]

Brian I'm from Detroit. We listen to just about everything.
This week I'll in St. John's, Newfoundland, so I'll even get to hear the whales sing.
I drink a glass of screech in your honour.
So I'm settled in and in the mood for a good read.

Jim

 

[Tom Curran]

C'mon, Brian. I'll even throw a red carpet over the soap box. Let's hear it.

On the surface, the subject is one tool vs another, but between the lines is your work philosophy, and it's great to hear.

 

[Brian Marshall]

Not sleepy yet? Still watching the paint dry, huh?

Well, since a couple of you still want to see it, I’ll finish putting it up. But where's the original poster? There are 2 more after this one (IF y'all want to see them?) and then I’m done on the subject. There is only one of me, I’m swamped in the shop, and I’ve got a half filled class to try and fill for the week after this...



OK, so you’ve read a bit about my experiences, made your decision as to whether I’m unduly biased or influenced - or maybe you’ve simply decided to wait and see what kind of fool I really am…?

Let’s get back to the posts and the thread and some observations on both. #1 Post, the one that set the subject – My question to everyone is, which is better, GRS or Lindsay equipment? And why? All I have known is GRS and I am interested to see what you think!
(That question rules out the discussion of hand push, hammer & chisel, and reciprocating mechanical tools like NGraver.)


Short answer is that both work just fine, and I’ve used both to make a living.


The long answer involves price, current personal preferences - like how it feels in your hand, changes in personal preferences (over years), special features like controls on the handpiece, strokes per minute, ease of maintenance, what special use you may put the tool to, space requirements, weight, portability, electrical consumption, air consumption, rate of repair, parts availability, service, after market support, and yeah, the personal interactions - directly with the head of one company(L) or with representatives at the other(GRS).


Here's how it works for a lot of folks:


The first step most people take in this journey is talking to other people, or in this case posting on a forum. The problem with this, is that being new to the subject, you simply don’t know which specific questions to ask. If you ask a general question - like which tool should I get – you are gonna get general answers from the advocates of both major contenders in the pneumatic tool field. A lot of those advocates who will answer you - have only ever really used one of the pneumatic systems available. (really used – should be defined as a wee bit more than a day or even a week or so, no?) (Observation)

I’m not saying that you should discount their opinions, advice, or observations because they only ever owned the one system. But I am saying that you should keep it in mind - if that is indeed the case. (Opinion)

Owners of one brand or the other already have a large cash commitment to that particular brand. Some have emotional commitments too. Their teachers, their best buds, or the star engravers they admire are usin’ that brand. So of course, it HAS to be the ONE…right? (Opinion/observations)

This is probably the biggest source of “contention” when these discussions come up on the forums. Yeah, those TOOL WARS!


The second place people go along this journey (which, sadly, often does not include books yet) – is straight to the catalogs, flyers and websites. There you are confronted with what seems to be a mind boggling variety of choices - to a new engraver. If your wallet is thin to begin with, and you don’t know what you are doing yet, you can empty it in seconds and still not be able to achieve the results you are after – with what you get.. (Observation)

I would guess, after years of seeing students bring stuff to workshops – that most have already bought a fairly high percentage of "accessories" that will eventually become dust collecting knickknacks. Yes, some of them might get used – once every other year. Others are an unnecessary waste of money and space. (Observation/opinion)


The third place people go, usually after having purchased a system out of a catalog, from a website, or Ebay, is back to the forums and the archives in the forums. Sometimes at this point they will have purchased a book or two. (Wise move)

Then they’ll try to learn to engrave by reading the book and following the advice and tutorials on the forums. Trying to imitate what they see and read about. It looks like anybody can just buy a tool and do it, right? RIGHT!!!

But the end result for most of them is needless frustration… and yes, there will always be a few exceptions. Look at the older ones amongst us. We had no place to go to learn, no forums, no tutorials, and only 2 or 3 books were in print in back the "dark ages". Somehow we "made" it.(Observation)


The last place people usually go – is where they should have gone when they first got interested. To see a professional and take a class. Most schools these days are set up with everything you need. You don’t need to own anything yet or bring anything with you, other than your warm body. As you take the class you will find out which tools are absolutely essential to YOU and which just looked cool in the catalog or on the website.

Most students can save themselves hundreds of dollars, and some save the entire cost of the class by being able to make the correct decisions (the first time) as to how to equip their benches. A couple of schools are set up for you to purchase the equipment immediately after class and take it home with you if you wish. I have chosen not to sell tools because I do not believe that is the teachers place. (Observation/opinion)


Lastly, hand engraving is NOT for everyone, and taking a class before investing in tools may save you thousands of dollars and a lot of grief – especially if it turns out to be something you don’t really like to do. Think about that too…



Addendum from me: I’m writing on this topic a couple days before you are seeing it, so sometimes someone will have already made a comment that will be redundant when you see it posted here again. My crystal ball’s busted so I can’t see ahead…but the next installment is the actual comparison of the tools.

Also, can I get rid of the little (observation/opinion) signs from now on? Everybody seems to have figured out what I mean by now… I’m only speaking for myself and my experiences here. Your mileage may - and probably will - differ.

Brian Marshall
Stockton Jewelry Arts School
Stockton, CA USA 95209
209-477-0550
instructor@jewelryartschool.com




Man, this guy’s pretty long-winded, ain’t he? ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

*Only the GRS Mach/siblings, Max, Meister, and the various Lindsay products are being discussed here.

 

[KCSteve]

Great rant(s) Brian!

I had heard from the original poster that he was heading home to the Cedar Rapids area over the weekend. Depending on just where in the area home is that may explain why he's been off-line. In fact, even if 'home' is high and dry he may well be rather busy helping keep it that way - and helping his neighbors who weren't so fortunate.

That's ok - the thread will not only be here when he gets back, it will be a big help to all the other folks with the same questions.

 

[Brian Marshall]

Steve,

Ranting was never my intention... sorry you see it that way. Words that are bold, capitalized, italicized, or underlined are done that way for emphasis.

If ever you meet me, you will find that I talk just like that in person.

B.

 

[Dave London]

Thanks Brian
I researched all of the tools about 7 yrs ago, started with H&C and push, long learning curve and pain. Picked up a old Gravermiester don't ask probally great in it's day. Next was System 3 not bad but better suited to wood carving (IMO). Then I ran across the Airgraver review by Tiz, that and the 45 day return policy what did I have to loose. Never looked back ended up with a Classic and Chasing tool then upgraded to the PC and tungsten piston. Am I an Artist? not as an engraver but I am having fun and some people like my work. The personal service by Steve L cannot be matched.
Now I have many of GRS tools and like them just called Aaron today. Ray at Ngraver is a great guy also. As was mentioned in this thread you dont see Airgraver's for sale second hand, the only one I heard of is some guy in Kiwi land.
I am fortunate that in the golden years (that when you have more doctors than old friends) I can carve and chip away and not worry about the next meal. Dave

 

[JourneymanBuilder]

I appreciate all the time taken to answer posts in this thread as well as the offering of real, honest insight that is apparent within these pages.

I purchased a system from GRS mainly out of convienience, and the only engraver I ever met face to face was using the same system.

I am not sorry nor do I feel mis-guided for the actions and will as money allows also purchase an AirGraver in the PC configuration as the portability is a huge selling point for me, the GRS system will never really set idle as I have at least one artistic child and may be able to coax out some engraving.

Brian I am interested in your time as a professional and will send you an e-mail.

 

[Christopher Malouf]

Brian,

Regarding your "second place" that people go.....

Information on the net was much less prevalent a few years ago. A search on engraving tools brought up GRS' web site and that was about it. I did buy my equipment before taking a class but with classes backed up 6 months to a year, it made sense to invest my savings rather than watch it evaporate while I was suspended in career-change purgatory. Sure I could have taken a class with Joe Shmo the pro but how's a new guy supposed to know. After all, I just wanted to be able to engrave my name and sharpen my new tools .... what better place to go than the place you got the tools from?

A downside to catalog buying is collecting "knicknacks" so it was common sense to pick up the phone and speak to real live person in the business of selling only engraving tools. I have to hand it to the sales folks at GRS ... I got just about everything I needed and not much more. Do I have stuff I'll never use? Yes but it is somewhat insignificant now because ....

No teacher or sales rep can determine exactly what direction a new engraver will take. They can only point that individual in the general direction. That's what GRS' tool packages and beginner classes are engineered to accompish and I believe they do. Will I ever take another structured course? ... probably not. That's because I have a pretty good idea of what I need to work on in regard to the direction I want to go. I would rather spend a lot more for one on one instruction and create my own sylibus (sic?) before I get there.

IMHO, I believe the most important consideration for the new entrant is:

Long term commitment (financial or otherwise). I call this the "tool treadmill". "You gotta get this to do that and your gonna need that if you get this." This is a long term commitment and when someone is just starting out, the best system is the minimal system that accomplishes the most. It's also the system that grows with you rather than getting entirely junked if you find something better.

Does the average person with a little bit of common sense need a $1500 class to figure that out?? I think not, but maybe somebody running their own school would like that person to believe otherwise. As long as they speak with the respective tool manufacturers directly or consult with someone with experience, they'll be in good shape. For that, information is readily available and free of charge in this forum.

In each of your "places", hindsight is 20/20.



I might sound a bit biased now but after some reflection on this subject, I believe any other consideration for the new engraver (other than the long term commitment) is trivial. Both systems are more than suitable for learning the art and learning to create some fantastic stuff with more than reasonable reliability. I have never been able to say this about any other "tool" I've ever owned; whether it be a computer or a saw. Well made products may have their quirks but they don't have planned obsolescense or a planned lifespan - particularly in this wonderful modern age of disposability.

In the big picture, this "tool war" is just a skirmmish ... just as sure as this thread will eventually sink to the bottom of this forum.

I know I said I wouldn't comment any further on this thread but I did.

Chris